Is this section glued?

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Recently got a low cost pen in a very pretty celluloid but no matter what I do, I cannot get the section out. I took a closer look and the section looks almost... fused to the body? Is this pen FUBAR or is there anything I can do here?

 

 

I've tried applying a small amount of heat and applying a fair amount of pressure pulling, which has not really failed me to this point even with pens with a reputation for being tough to take apart like Taperites. But this won't budge even a bit after hours of trying. 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Little update, after a day of trying everything possible, it has not even loosened a tiny bit. This pen is going into my parts drawer unfortunately. Whatever it was glued with, it's impossible to remove. It is most definitely not shellac. Or the last owner may have overapplied heat and shrank the body of the pen, it looks a bit strange.

 

If anyone has any ideas I'll try them but I think I've tried everything reasonable and I am literally in physical pain, lot of hand pain from trying to twist/pull the section out.

[Seney724]

5 minutes ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

Little update, after a day of trying everything possible, it has not even loosened a tiny bit. This pen is going into my parts drawer unfortunately. Whatever it was glued with, it's impossible to remove. It is most definitely not shellac. Or the last owner may have overapplied heat and shrank the body of the pen, it looks a bit strange.

 

If anyone has any ideas I'll try them but I think I've tried everything reasonable.

You say you have  tried everything possible but you've not mentioned any specifics except heat.

Have you tried soaking it?

 

How about a photo of the entire pen??  Are there any identifying marks which indicate the manufacturer?

What type of filling system does it have? 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

1 minute ago, Seney724 said:

You say you have  tried everything possible but you've not mentioned any specifics except heat.

Have you tried soaking it?

 

How about a photo of the entire pen??  Are there any identifying marks which indicate the manufacturer?

What type of filling system does it have? 

 

I put it back to soak but it's a Stratford 77, a third tier button-filler. My understanding is the body is made of celluloid but the clear part of the section that goes into the body is made of lucite.

 

I didn't specify everything I tried in my last post, but I tried soaking it overnight in room temperature water. I also tried soapy water, thinking it may lubricate things a bit but that didn't make any difference. Heat I already mentioned but I did this several times and didn't notice any hint of movement. As a last resort I even tried warm water, thinking it may get into any minute loose space between the section and body and loosen any glue, but this also didn't work.

 

In terms of how I tried pulling it out, I tried twisting, pulling, basically every motion possible. Also tried some improvised section pliers but no luck there either. 

[Seney724]

You may well be right that the section is glued into place but I'd not simply assume that nor would I give up yet.  It can take several days of very patient effort(s) to finally get the section to release from the barrel.

 

Say more about the way you are heating.........

Are you using Dawn as your "soap?"

Section pliers are a valuable tool but must be employed VERY carefully.  What do you mean yours are "improvised?"

 

Soak, heat, and repeat.  Again and again and again.  IF you get even the least bit frustrated, set the pen down and come back to it.

 

Chances are the section is "friction fit" but it would be worth trying to find out if the section in the Stratford 77 is one of the  screw in / screw out types.  Your link is to Jim Mamoulides's excellent website penhero.com  Many terrific and very informative articles that can be found there.  And, Jim's photos are outstanding.  You might wish to reach out to Jim to see if he knows for sure if the section is friction fit or screw in / out.  He may also have some other tips as a result of his having worked with these pens.

 

Stick with it; that's a really nice pen!!

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Yup, just some basic Dawn dish soap, nothing fancy. I like it because it's gentle and it has some lubricating qualities that have helped in the past, especially with stuck nibs. As for heat, a standard hair dryer at medium heat, slowly turning the pen while heating until it is slightly warm to the touch. 

 

The "improvised" section pliers are normal pliers with some thick rubber gripping wrapped around the section to protect it. To be honest, I only tried this for a bit, I don't feel comfortable using pliers and it's the biggest reason I haven't purchased section pliers in the first place. And I've never needed them before.

 

I'd be very surprised if the section is threaded, I have similar Wearever button fillers from this era and they're all friction fit, even the Parker Duofold past the late 1920's are all friction fit. That being said, I always twist by default even if I know it's friction fit. I find the twisting motion is better for dislodging dried up shellac (if there is any) and makes it easier to pull out.

[kestrel]

Look at the section/barrel joint with a good loupe.  You might be able to see signs of the glue.  This is a low third-tier pen and I don't imagine the manufacturer had an extruded glue removal step in the manufacturing process. 

I have a couple of Stratfords and a gorgeous matched set of three American pens that will never be resacced because someone, probably the original manufacturer, glued the section into the barrel.  I can see little beads of adhesive extruded at the joint when the parts were pressed together.  Not shellac, glue. 

 

Maybe one of the pros can recommend a solvent that won't damage the pen but might soften the glue.  Good luck.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

8 minutes ago, kestrel said:

Look at the section/barrel joint with a good loupe.  You might be able to see signs of the glue.  This is a low third-tier pen and I don't imagine the manufacturer had an extruded glue removal step in the manufacturing process. 

I have a couple of Stratfords and a gorgeous matched set of three American pens that will never be resacced because someone, probably the original manufacturer, glued the section into the barrel.  I can see little beads of adhesive extruded at the joint when the parts were pressed together.  Not shellac, glue. 

 

Maybe one of the pros can recommend a solvent that won't damage the pen but might soften the glue.  Good luck.

 

Ahh, this is exactly what I'm afraid of... and yeah, the "fusing" I see could quite possibly be glue. It's really hard to take a picture of it (I tried above but it's really hard to see it), but the entire circumference of the joint where the section meets the body, there's no seam - it's completely sealed with something.

 

I'll keep trying for a bit but if I can't open in another day or two I am going to assume it's glued. It's a shame because the celluloid on this pen's really nice and it feels pretty solid - significantly nicer than a Wearever, for example. The steel nib even has tipping on it which seems rare for this time. Maybe I'll find another one someday that I can open.

[Z man]

Definitely inexperienced here, but 10% ammonia has been recommended in other situations. Occasionally it's worked for me. Any thoughts or recommendations by others for this?

 

Z

[Seney724]

9 hours ago, Z man said:

Definitely inexperienced here, but 10% ammonia has been recommended in other situations. Occasionally it's worked for me. Any thoughts or recommendations by others for this?

 

Z

Whereas in other situations, like a pen flush, a solution containing dilute ammonia is commonly employed, I am somewhat slow to go to the ammonia in this sort of situation.  But it sounds like it merits a try here.  I would add it to the Dawn solution and limit the exposure to the ammonia (soaking time) to about 10-15 minutes.

[Seney724]

10 hours ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

Yup, just some basic Dawn dish soap, nothing fancy. I like it because it's gentle and it has some lubricating qualities that have helped in the past, especially with stuck nibs. As for heat, a standard hair dryer at medium heat, slowly turning the pen while heating until it is slightly warm to the touch. 

 

The "improvised" section pliers are normal pliers with some thick rubber gripping wrapped around the section to protect it. To be honest, I only tried this for a bit, I don't feel comfortable using pliers and it's the biggest reason I haven't purchased section pliers in the first place. And I've never needed them before.

 

I'd be very surprised if the section is threaded, I have similar Wearever button fillers from this era and they're all friction fit, even the Parker Duofold past the late 1920's are all friction fit. That being said, I always twist by default even if I know it's friction fit. I find the twisting motion is better for dislodging dried up shellac (if there is any) and makes it easier to pull out.

It sounds to me like you are really getting into this kind of work.  IMO, it adds much fun and pleasure to the overall pen collecting experience.  And, over time, as your skills improve you will be amazed how much money (and time, and angst) you will save by doing the work itself.  The most important principal is to know your own limits and never be hesitant to ask someone more expert to do the more advanced or complicated work you will need done.  And, as we've said, the next most important principal is patience!!

 

Anyway, if you are serious about getting in to this work, do yourself a favor and get some legitimate tools for the work you do.  A household hairdryer and improvised section pliers are not going to help you do what you need to do....... and may well derail you.  Invest in a good heat gun and a real set of section pliers.  Both are important components of one's tool kit and both REQUIRE that you know how to use them.  Especially section pliers.  Needless to say, there is a learning curve, but once you have gained sufficient experience, you will be glad that you have them.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I'll probably grab a set of section pliers, they're not so expensive and it's good to have them in rare cases like this when gripping squares aren't enough. The heatgun I am still a little hesitant about, I've heard of people overdoing it and melting/warping pens; my impression is heatguns can output a lot more targeted heat than an everyday hairdryer which can be a little dangerous.

 

I think the biggest tool I need is actually an ultrasonic cleaner. I've been putting off buying one for like a year because I just don't have room for one (house is a little small, not much storage) but it'd be really useful for cleaning the gunk out of some of these really old pens. I've been running through boxes of Q-tips like crazy for cleaning instead.

 

Thanks for the advice everyone.

[Seney724]

18 minutes ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

I'll probably grab a set of section pliers, they're not so expensive and it's good to have them in rare cases like this when gripping squares aren't enough. The heatgun I am still a little hesitant about, I've heard of people overdoing it and melting/warping pens; my impression is heatguns can output a lot more targeted heat than an everyday hairdryer which can be a little dangerous.

 

I think the biggest tool I need is actually an ultrasonic cleaner. I've been putting off buying one for like a year because I just don't have room for one (house is a little small, not much storage) but it'd be really useful for cleaning the gunk out of some of these really old pens. I've been running through boxes of Q-tips like crazy for cleaning instead.

 

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Two things.  First, you are so right about the need to be very careful about the heat output.  It is not only an issue as relates to damaging your pens but it is also a significant safety issue when working with celluloid. Did you know you can acquire a heat gun which will allow you to better regulate the heat you are using than will an everyday hair dryer?  Second, I think Dill's pipe cleaners (non-bristled) are a far more efficient and effective way of cleaning. I acquired an ultrasonic cleaner but use it far less than I had envisioned.  Whereas section pliers make some people nervous, I am much more nervous about the use of the ultrasonic cleaner for delicate vintage pens.