Glued or shellacked nib holder liberation tips?

[3manypens]

I've gotten myself a potentially great 454 and the nib holder had just enough gunk peeking out to know I'm possibly in trouble.  I've never broken a pen during ammeter restoration but this one is well past a standout for giving me difficulty.  Other than some mineral oil and pen flush I've avoided exposing hardened rubber to anything other than normal use.  I'd love advice on a least harmful but somewhat aggressive approach, especially considering I can't be sure this is shellac I'm dealing with.  My instincts are telling me any solvents will do more hard than good but the time has come to defer to the experience of others.

[3manypens]

Perhaps a recommendation on section pliers well contoured for the the early lever fillers?  I've suddenly become self conscious about the fact that new hobbyists probably don't start with a vintage pen, nor service it themselves.  

[mizgeorge]

Gentle heat and perseverance over many, many days. When it's not working, put it down and come back to it. Opening up some of these old pens is an exercise in patience, but is well worth it. 

 

I would avoid any sort of solvent/oil or anything other than dry heat.

[3manypens]

Thanks for advising the route of caution!  Sadly I've gotten away with some tip soaking in the past so I may be stuck with spare attempts until things embrittle or give, but I'll apply patience in the face of vintage.  Thumb grip has been sufficient so far, though re-seating a nib and feed is sometimes all I can manage which has thankfully been enough.

Would you think section pliers or inner tube rubber for grip would be advised?  My thumb is screaming for a better approach but making my life easy with a proper grip might make embrittled rubber the loser in the friction fit fight.  This will nag at me until its liberated but not my only writing implement so I'll resign myself to shelfing it while its in limbo.

[mizgeorge]

I use a bit of inner tube, shelf grip or section pliers (gently) as needed (arthritic hands) - but always keep one hand bare to check the heat - if it's too hot for fingers, it's too hot for the pen. 

 

I find it can often take many frustrating attempts, and then suddenly it just happens, which makes it all worth it.

[3manypens]

The added insights are all the more appreciated!  My first ever fountain pen was a 552 1/2 and the fact I ordered a converter should tell you how little I knew.  I'm not afraid of failure, but I'm not cavalier either, so I took note of the fact I was out of my depth and settled in with a couple parts pens and a rabbit hole binge.  A wonderful writer needing a fresh sack has become a guilty pleasure actually, hence the user name.

This nib holder being abnormally stuck is actually a bit of a blessing in surprise, I am fresh out of #17s and started with what was intended to include torn sacs as I learned.  Now I'm checking off collector temptation boxes and refitting favorable nibs.

The craziest part is I *think* I have an artist's nib, but absolutely nobody I know is into pens.  I can't be sure its a wet noodle but until I came across it I was under flexing and thought I kept finding unmarked rigid nibs.  I used .5mm mechanical pencils in school and would "sketch" with a ballpoint so I had ended up with a small hoard of flex nibs before realizing I simply had a feather touch natural penstroke.  

I thought to post an introduction but frankly even I think I sound ridiculous.  I guess its fair to say I'm a Waterman guy now.  I've always used cursive though, so this STARTED as just wanting a fancy writer but now it seems I'm just along for the ride.

[FarmBoy]

My interpretation of Waterman literature advertising the Artists special nib  would indicate that moist pasta is not a good description of the nib. 

[crescentfiller]

12 hours ago, FarmBoy said:

My interpretation of Waterman literature advertising the Artists special nib  would indicate that moist pasta is not a good description of the nib. 

 

Unless, of course, the Artist is Alfredo Fettuccini....

[I-am-not-really-here]

If the nib is not stamped 'Artist' then it is not a Waterman Artist nib.  The Waterman Artist nib was paired with a special feed that allowed the use of India ink.  This is primarily (IMO) what gave it the identification, not its 'extra flexible' characteristic.  
 

 

[3manypens]

Thank you much for the added insights!  Self taught is slow going and any tidbit I've misunderstood is not easily corrected on my own.  I can't be certain what so ever but the presence or lack of a type or style stamp is a bit of a dark hole as far as what makes sense to me.  Unmarked keyholes often seem like reds, and manifold seemed to have been specialized into several rigid tip styles such as account & stenographer to the green & purple?  Very much asking rather than trying to share.  I'll make a point to take some pictures of my super flex nib as well, I'd love some more information on it.

I did go back to my oiling of my pens and thought I may have an insight worth asserting.  The ebonite rubbers are quite stable and rather simplistic due to the organic compounds involved.  A petrol based oil will actually damage the ebonite (though I am still awaiting a response from a chemistry major I know to look into a more application specific interaction with ebonite versus vulcanized rubbers made today).  The oils used along with natural rubber while infusing sulfur into the material were either mineral oil or linseed oil.  I read second hand that waterman specifically used mineral oil, so this is what I bought.  These natural oils leeching out are, from the generic research I've done, the secondary cause of degradation after light exposure and about the only thing which can be somewhat reversed.  

I've been having wonderful results attempting to "restore" the hard rubber with a reimpregnation of mineral oil into the material.  This has been some tinkering on user grade rubber but I have actually been quite hesitant to look into deoxidizers or dyes due to the petrol incompatibility.  My fear is due to the fact that a poor choice today will take 30 years to prove fatal to the pen, but my love for these earliest models is tied directly to the KISS method.  They just work, and with mindfulness and common sense they seem to be practically indestructible.

 

An advantage ebonite has as an industrial material is its minimal swelling in water, which is information I'm not intending to make use of but part of my original post was theorizing that the oil wouldn't do harm but may both lubricate some stuck joint faces but also may soften the shellac somewhat.  My "clever" thought was the internal faces are all guaranteed to be in better condition, so any swell should be on the outermost parts but I'm not familiar with compression mechanics to guess whether any difference would increase or decrease pressure on the fit.

[Addertooth]

If you are completely stalled a month from now, consider "plan B".   For some reason sections are not hard to find (normally), and can be considered a sacrificial piece when it comes to a pen rebuild.  The reason for the surplus is all the pens which have broken bodies, and the Section/Nib/Feed are the only salvageable parts which can be harvested.  

 

Do find a replacement section before you decide to take this route.  A few pen rebuilders have a selection of Sections which they sell.  

 

I have yet to find a section/feed/nib combination which cannot be freed with some patient and judicious work.   By far, the worst ones were used with India ink, which seem to have an amazing bonding ability.  I have had India ink bond to 14k gold, which required hours of work to carefully scrape and scrub to remove.  I would rather remove super-glue.  The last time it was a Waterman Red Keyhole nib in a desk pen, which had been used with India ink, and allowed to set for a few decades.   

[3manypens]

As it turned out I was just coming in to announce finally having success!  I had let it dry out a bit as I got myself busy and the shellac finally yielded with the section pliers I broke down and invested in.

Now I find myself with a very good size 2 nib in a 54 stamped pen.  I did already attempt a test fit with the spare 4 I greedily bought before I had a pen to use it in, and its an incredibly fine needle, but the seating has been wanting to stop rather shallow and I suspect the size 2 was heat set...

This would officially be my first size swap so I'd appreciate thoughts offered.  My understanding is 2's and 4's are made for the same feed, and I may soften the edge of the 4 to slide past the previous groove more easily, but I hesitate to leave the shallow set and shellac a fresh sac on just because I have cap clearance.  Of course there is always refitting a size 2, and I love a sterling overlay no matter the nib, but I'm a bit more consideration and tinkering before calling it a good writer.

[shalitha33]

I am assuming you are matching the shape of the section with the nib to fit the nib on the same orientation as it originally would have been. would it be possible to get a pic of where no 4 nib sit when you attempt to put it in the section ? I'm no waterman expert so i could be completely wrong, I thought both size 52 and 54 shared the same body and feed. Although I'm unsure if parts (other than the nib) of a 14/12psf is changeable with that of a 52/54 and if non-overlay parts match that of the overlay models.

[3manypens]

Sure!  Happy to get a picture when I get the chance!  It does sit, and it does fit in the cap as well as feed.  The problem is (and I'm glad I'm not a bull in a china shop about these), the #4 is much longer.  My proclivity towards desk pens has left me with a hunch I have not actively followed up on which is that desk pen nibs tended to be a bit longer than the stock offerings in others.  Its also entirely possible the examples I've found are simply an era difference.

My knowledge and first hand tinkering can confirm a 54 and 52 are but an appropriately stamped nib to match the imprint rather than the parts.  I can also confirm the overlay codes were simply slipped over the rubber pens and from imprints I've seen this was likely done to stock pens and imprinted for the addition after the fact (one of mine lacks the overlay code in particular and some eras and manufacturing locations varied on the labeling).

I am slowly gaining confidence in my knowledge though I'll assert I'm not an expert either.  That said the 12psf, I believe, was a misnomer and indicator of earlier model pens.  Self-filler is the sf in psf, and I am brain farting the p I know sf on its own is the sleeve filler.  a 12 and a 14 should be eyedroppers, and a 12/14psf was a lever filler before they were standardized, making a 14psf an early 54.  A nuance to the early eyedroppers, however, is their feeds predated the standard spoon feed waterman became famous for.  Whether an eyedropper's fit is the same would be a gap in my experience and knowledge.

(Anyone is welcome to correct me if I am wrong!)

[shalitha33]

I will take your word on overlay simply being slipped on the matching hard rubber pen.

Unfortunately I don't have any full overlay pens to check this myself :(.

 

Closest I have is this pair 52 and 0552. although one is from Canada and the other is from US. 0552 has a much smaller lever box.
note that the cap isn't fully closed on the overlay pen so please ignore the length difference.

 

Following are a number of 52 1/2v and 72 1/2v and 42 1/2v variants. All of these are US made pens.

 

Overlay pens are much shorter in this case. Black, Red , Ripple and woodgrain hard rubber pens have basically the same length.

 

 
Cap lengths are slightly different in this case. Note that the second cap from left have the cap-lip slightly reduced. 2 part cap is the one matching the 72 which is the eyedropper version of the 52.

 

Above blue-green ripple has a number 2 nib. above 3 pes all have the same nib. i haven't tried switching sections between these pens.  

[3manypens]

Thanks for sharing some of your beautiful collection!  I was totally unaware of the (very drastic) size difference on a 1/2V with an overlay!  This is one I'll look into futher into because it is a bit of a standout to me!  In my case I lack smaller pens when I am not too tempted otherwise so I'm happy to show what I can on the matter from my collection!

On the bottom here is a 452, middle is a 754 and on top is the 454 I have been babying.  In this case my 754 has its cap cracked which is largely why it screws on further (I believe).

I love your collection!  The blue ripple desk pen (with gilded taper tip) is especially handsome!  I'd love to know more about the BHR combo as well!  The spacer on it (and the taper pencils) are an interest I know little about.

I have also attached a picture of my size 4 fitted in as I had made the attempt.  I have refit nibs enough to be happy with the feed relative to the nib, and its depth in the nib holder, so what is shown is the over-exposure I am less than confidant about.  A dip test seemed over-wet and proved I need to further tune my readjustment of the nib itself, but is close to what I would be confidant putting a sac on and seeing how it settles with the intended vacuum.  Will look forward to your (and other's) thoughts!

[shalitha33]

I don't know how far the nib needs to be in to consider it proper :(. Images in catalogs of the period shows the number 4 showing.

This could be an artist typing to show everything on the nib so i'm not sure how far out it needs to be in.

 

 

As long as you have enough clarence for the cap I'm guessing it is ok. Smaller 52 1/2v pens and the 94 ripples have a feed that is narrowed at the base.

I'm using this to match with the inside of the section. i'm not sure if this is correct or not.

 

Aiken lambert (capped) and the two waterman 94s have the same length . once capped both Watrmans have enough room on the cap for the nib.

 

 

 

Following is the Waterman desk pen with the pencil at the end of it.  as seen on the page of the book cap is supposed to go in to the base to complete the desk holder.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a matching base for this :(. I'm not sure why this cap has a clip it it. but its just there.

Cant think of any one with a deep enough pocket to fit this pen :P.

 

Pencil is broken currently. The metal ring /washer  that keep the inner parts in place has popped. :(

I need to find some one who can put this back together to get it working again.

 

 

 

Spacer is just a cosmetic ring.  Photo on the book doesn't have it. based on the fading on the barrel I'm assuming its original to this pen. 

 

 

I don't have a matching cp for the ripple and not sure if that even has one. Photo on the book doesn't show one either.



Both this pen and the book doesn't show a spacer for this pen. both pens are number 2 pens. this one is marked ripple.

[crescentfiller]

"I am brain farting the p I know sf on its own is the sleeve filler. "

 

Pocket Self Filling

One difference in the early lever filler models is the threads, raised v. flush. Caps don't swap well.