At What Point is it Hoarding?

[bunnspecial]

So, I've been on the hunt now for several months for a bottle of Penman Ruby. I had at least one of every other color(although only a small amount of Emerald-I'd like another bottle), and duplicates of Ebony.

 

Last week, I came across a listing on Reddit pen swap for Ruby, and the person also had a bottle of Sapphire listed. Since, well, it was Sapphire, I figured I'd grab it at the same time.

 

Some negotiations led to me buying this person's entire stash of Penman, which amounted to this...

 

 

That brings me up to this for my total stash, less one bottle of Mocha that is at work.

 

That brings me here

 

 

Overboard maybe, but I'd still buy another bottle of emerald, and at least I'm in good shape on my personal favorite blue ink above all others...

[ErrantSmudge]

In my mind it's hoarding when you have more than one bottle.  So I think you're there with all but Mocha.

[inkstainedruth]

I have backup bottles of a number of inks, so I still have it available if I run out.  A number of them are either vintage inks (so I grab them if and when I can) or LE inks (such as some as the Edelstein Ink of the Year Selections -- but only the ones I like).  And I have a backup bottle of inks that are not always in stock.  I learned my lesson after knocking an almost full bottle of Noodler's Kung Te Cheng off my bathroom counter and it wasn't in stock anywhere for a couple of months.

If that makes me a hoarder, so be it....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Carguy]

If the sheer number of inks, most all different, at 95+ is hoarding, then I am…..very few duplicates though.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

Overboard maybe, but I'd still buy another bottle of emerald,

 

I think buying more than I can expect to use up or give away — or, I suppose, sell which is something I don't do — before the (either explicitly, or derived by ‘shelf life’) recommended use-by date of the retail product, constitutes hoarding if the unit count is greater than one. (I added in the final clause, because I have neither intention nor desire to finish using up one 3oz bottle of Noodler's Kung Te-Cheng, but wouldn't be able to get it in a smaller bottle size as produced by the manufacturer.)

 

I'd also say the reason or motivation for such purchasing decision is irrelevant, in that a limited edition ink that, say, has a stated shelf life of three years, and for which production and supply by the manufacturer ceased in December 2018, would not be something intended to be available for use in 2023. If a user acquires enough of it, while it is still commercially available, to meet the projected ink consumption for a decade — instead of looking for and accepting a (worthy or unworthy) replacement or substitute ink for his/her usage requirements in three or even five years' time — then I think that sort of conscious future planning still constitutes hoarding.

 

Some examples of my own ink hoarding behaviour:

• seventeen 50ml bottles of Pelikan Edelstein (IOTY 2017) Smoky Quartz, ordered over the span of a week or so, while it was available to me at (the equivalent of) a quarter of the local RRP, offered in stock clearance of what was already discontinued
  
  I'm not even halfway through my first (outside of those seventeen!) bottle of that ink, through either normal usage or giving away 2ml samples; and, although I've given away a couple of bottles to friends, and am certainly prepared to give/offer more bottles to those people in my social circle who I know are into fountain pens, I'm sure I'll still end up retaining a stash, or hoard, of ten or more bottles by the end of 2022.
   
• seven 50ml bottles of Jacques Herbin Noir Abyssal, ordered all at once at A$5 apiece
  
  I can't foresee that offer happening even again, and I could always use a black ink that is of a well-known brand as a ‘standard’ ink I wouldn't worry about ‘wasting’ in pen and paper testing (for written reviews, or just personal curiosity). There are certain black inks — including some I like, some I already have, some I don't use in my real-life use cases, and some I reject ‘on principle’ — that just won't do; but this ink seems to be a very good compromise candidate.
  
  I still haven't even removed the manufacturer's plastic wrapping from any of those bottles, even though I received the product months ago. Now that's unquestionably hoarding!
   
• a growing stash of ‘spare’ 60ml bottles of Platinum Blue-Black, which is my favourite iron-gall ink — I think I'm up to four bottles now; and surely losing count of how many spare bottles I have is indicative of hoarding.
  
  I order stuff from Cult Pens often, and while its eligibility threshold for free international shipping is low, sometimes I still need to pad my orders to get there. I would gladly have other Platinum iron-gall inks, or hoard a lifetime's supply of Platinum Carbon Black ink, but 1. they're all significantly more expensive than Platinum Blue-Black, and 2. the latter is the one Platinum ink that my other go-to supplier (La Couronne du Comte) doesn't carry. So, more often than not it ends up being what I add to an order at roughly £10 apiece.
   
• a small stash of Hero 232 and 234 inks
  
  Difficult to get outside of China, even though they were offered on AliExpress for sometimes ridiculously low prices of <US$2 per bottle; the deal killer is the shipping charges, which outweigh the asking prices of the parcel contents, even before COVID-19 had a name. I found one offer, about eighteen months ago, for which one (and only one, out of half a dozen options) shipping method had a fixed delivery charge for up to eleven bottles of ink, making the apportioned delivery charge per bottle more palatable; so I ordered far more than I expect to ever need, of these cheap and untested inks that I only know by reputation and wanted to try out of curiosity.
   
• six spare 50ml bottles of Robert Oster Sydney Lavender, and I don't know how many (probably seven) 30ml bottles of Herbin Cacao du Brésil, after giving some away

[SilverStoneMetallic]

I try very hard not to purchase things in excessive quantities without putting a good bit of thought into it, but about a month and a half ago, I found a place that had my favorite ink, Sailor jentle Nioi-Sumire in the old 50ml bottles for a little less than the new 20ml bottles, so I went and ordered six, and eight showed up at the end of the week. 

If you are going to use the ink/whatever you have large quantities of, I (personally) would not consider it hoarding, but accumulating. 

[bunnspecial]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I'd also say the reason or motivation for such purchasing decision is irrelevant, in that a limited edition ink that, say, has a stated shelf life of three years, and for which production and supply by the manufacturer ceased in December 2018, would not be something intended to be available for use in 2023.

 

I don't often see expiration dates on the ink I buy. The only place in fact that I recall seeing it is on iron gall Montblanc Midnight Blue(which, BTW, I also have several bottles of as it is my favorite IG ink and I panicked when I tried to replace my first bottle and realized it had been reformulated).

 

Regardless, I tend to ignore them and instead pay attention to the behavior of the ink. I regularly use ink more than 50 years old, but not long ago ditched some ~7 year old bottles. The former tend to be Skrip and Quink, both of which have rather large amounts of phenol in them and will likely last a long time without mold growth. The latter was a bottle of Private Reserve I bought in 2012 or 2013 that had completely sludged up.

 

As these Penman inks go, I have found no substitute for them, and Sapphire in particular, and I've evaluated a lot of them(including some that can be as expensive and difficult to acquire as Penman). Some are very, very close and in day to day use I'm content to use Scribe Indigo or PR American Blue. Bungubox Sapphire in that little 30mL shoe is rather scary and I'd almost rather just use Penman than use it since I(now) have a lot more Penman. At the end of the day, though, when I want Penman Sapphire, there is nothing to replace Penman Sapphire.

 

I don't generally mail samples, but I do tend to be generous with them in person. It makes my day if a fountain pen user stops by my office and they leave with a sample vial or a pen filled with ink they might not otherwise try. BTW, this sometimes is a reason for me to have duplicate bottles of something-I often have a "home bottle" and a "work bottle"...

[silverlifter]

I am the other end of the spectrum. I only have around 20 bottles, of which only two are dupes:

• KWZ IG Blue #3 - my favourite ink. Rumours of it being discontinued mean that when it runs out (assuming it does) Platinum Blue Black would move into that slot.
• Hero 232 IG Blue Black - I'm not especially fond of it, but it was so ridiculously cheap, I ordered three bottles

I have a couple of "vintage" Montblanc bottles, the original IG Midnight Blue, and the IG Blue Black. If I found another bottle(s) of Midnight Blue for a reasonable price, I would not hesitate to acquire it.

[Daneaxe]

We have the usual suspects with regards to accusations of hoarding...

You know who you are, people. Step up, square yer shoulders and say it:

"Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm an ink hoarder."

😉

Depending on the person, 1000 bottles might be a reasonable collection, not hoarding at all, right @amberleadavis?

😃

Personally, I have 40 bottles or so, my new cabinet purchased for this can hold at least 100. Too much? Nope! Not for me.

😇

So there's your answer, folks: it depends. More than 1 is too much for one person, while 1K is fine for another. Personal choice & preference. 'nuff said.

 

Stay safe,

Daneaxe

[PithyProlix]

I haven't yet bought more than one of the same ink. When I was mistakenly sent bottles of two inks I already had, I gave them away. 

 

While I understand the compulsion to hoard an ink that is very well-liked, there are too many inks I don't already have that I want to try and, for me, the pleasure of finding a great new ink trumps the anxiety of thinking I might run out of one that I really like. Plus I have a vague limit on the amount I buy - basically, I think, "If I buy this ink will my wife give me a hard time about it?" (but perhaps she hasn't taken a good look at my two drawers of ink yet ...) - which also helps discourage buying multiples of the same ink. 

 

If I ran out of an ink that I really like I probably wouldn't buy it again because I have enough other ink that I really like. I haven't ran out of an ink yet so it's hard to say - I have a lot of pens I keep inked up and rotate through frequently and I'm not sure I will ever run out of an ink.

[VersoFolio]

When production of Pennonia, Pokoltuz ended I found my local pen seller rationing it to single bottle sales. I was able, on separate occasions, to get two bottles. I am very relieved I was able to get them.

Perhaps it relates to how secure we feel when maintaining our favorite pastime, writing! I need that 'buffer' zone against the shock of sudden change.

Anyone who has experienced, panic, 'covid lockdown' buying has an insight into the close relationship between emotional anxiety and hoarding. I would guess it is a primal response to feeling insecure. There is probably an inverse interaction between the two.

The more secure I feel the less I feel I need.

 

However, I need to begin my search for as beautiful a 'blue/grey/green/burgundy' ink as "Pokoltuz" is/was!!

 

[sandy101]

This much. 

 

[Dione]

I get hoarding ink even though I'm not guilty of doing it. I'm not sure I get hoarding multiple bottles of really old discontinued ink that is now well past any use by date it may have originally had especially when those same colors are now easily available as new inks from the original developer. But each to his own.

[VersoFolio]

32 minutes ago, sandy101 said:

This much. 

 

Nice hoarding!! Quite a stash sandy101..😃

[VersoFolio]

30 minutes ago, Dione said:

I get hoarding ink even though I'm not guilty of doing it. I'm not sure I get hoarding multiple bottles of really old discontinued ink that is now well past any use by date it may have originally had especially when those same colors are now easily available as new inks from the original developer. But each to his own.

No, you bring up an excellent point Dione. There is so much going on in the technical development of ink and that's very encouraging to learn.

I am also learning about ink as I go along, like most I suppose, and I don't actually know about individual "best before" dates, nor the decrease in performance as they age.

That is certainly not to say the information isn't available for me it's more that I haven't reached it yet.

On the subject of my "Pokoltuz" blue, I admit I could have got more but didn't. Partly because I knew other writers loved it too.

I specifically didn't want to deprive others of their inky pleasure!😊

I hope it is one of the 'stable' inks and don't lose is beautiful properties in the next year or so.

In the meantime I will be looking for inks that attract me strongly and enjoying my wonderful hobby.

Thank you vf

[RJS]

I own more bottles of ink than I'm ever likely to get through, but don't own doubles of anything. Pilot Blue Black has been my long term favourite and I would store doubles of that, if it wasn't for the fact I have one of the giant bottles of it to refill from, that should last me a very long time.

 

The one ink I might soon buy spares of is Platinum Blue Black. I love that ink and it would be sad if they stopped making it. Generally, I'm happy to find similar inks if an ink I like is discontinued (or altered). However, I'd really like to have a bottle or two of the classic 1980's IG Pilot BB that I grew up with.

[TSherbs]

To me, this is like when someone asks, with a drink in his hand, "Do I drink too much?" If you're asking, then the answer is yes.

[bunnspecial]

4 hours ago, Dione said:

especially when those same colors are now easily available as new inks from the original developer.

 

I have put up a review of Sapphire/Indigo and need to do the rest now that I do have all the colors.

 

With that said, the two I've tested most extensively-Indigo and Malachite-are somewhat less saturated than the originals. I noticed this when I reviewed Sapphire initially(I'll save posting the same review page I've put up a dozen times unless anyone wants to see it) and thought at first maybe it was water loss from bottle of sapphire. Several others have noted the difference, and virtually to the same degree. I tested one of the bottles of Sapphire that arrived yesterday and it looks identical to the one I had prior.

 

Malachite, in my experience, CAN shade to black in the right pen, while Emerald leans more toward a black that shades to green if that makes sense. IMO, PR Ebony Green might be a closer match in behavior than Scribe Malachite, although I think the shading "parameters"(darkest hue to lightest hue) are closer in Malachite.

 

I suspect that when Leighton formulated these he may have gone a bit less saturated intentionally since one of the identified problems with Penman inks at the time was clogging and other tempeamental behavior. I have a few other things I want to talk to him about, and have been meaning to see if I can schedule a call again with him. I'll ask about that when I do.

 

There's also the distinct possibility that certain dyes or other components in the Penman inks are either on the naughty list now or simply not available. The Scribe inks have very little smell, while a lot of the Penman inks are quite pungent(not a Phenol-type smell either, but just a very "chemical" smell).

 

At the end of the day, even though I use Scribe Indigo, American Blue, and the like I'm still convinced that nothing really does replace Penman Sapphire.

[Dione]

Yes Leighton has made his new inks less saturated than the originals. The originals were specially designed to be used in modern Duofolds. However because of it's old age and some inevitable water loss I've found Sapphire now tends to be so heavily saturated that it can produce hard starts and even complete refusal to write in some pens although it can withstand some dilution that improves that. I've seen both inks age to the same color in models of the same pen, but find the newer inks are better behaved. I wouldn't be at all concerned if I lost my remaining Penman inks tomorrow and would never use one in a piston filler pen.

[bunnspecial]

Interesting that they were developed for the new Duofolds. That hadn't come up in my conversations with Leighton, but it kind of surprises me given the known dry-out problem that didn't seem to be completely resolved until the French-made model(that eliminated the vent hole under the clip).

 

I have a hard time buying that old Sapphire is darker from water loss at least in glass bottles. On the surface it's a logical explanation because evaporation would cause the ink to appear more saturated.

 

With that said, the theory falls apart for me because we're now dealing with 20+ year bottles of the ink that may have been stored in someones desk drawer, or out on a shelf, or in an attic or garage or who knows where else plus we will receive them unopened, nearly empty, or anywhere in-between. None the less, I see consistency in bottles obtained from different sources with different fill levels. That indicates to me that environmental factors-whether evaporation(which would depend on temperature and how well sealed the bottle is) or chemical degradation(which could be affected by temperature, bottle seal, and even to some extent how full the bottle is) are not a big factor, but that's just in my mind.

 

I need to get into the lab-and not just my lab but a lab with an HPLC at least-and see if I can make heads or tails of this...I'm limited by what I can do with GC-MS and IR(especially considering that I don't have a good way now to sample aqueous solutions on the latter).