Lamy bottles ink refills

[arcfide]

I suspect that the economics of shipping bottles back to Lamy doesn't work out, and those economics are probably a pretty good proxy for the ecological impact, as well. The shipping and transportation costs getting the glass bottles back to Lamy probably results in more net environmental impact. 

 

That's why I think the case can be made for refill packets. If you've bought a Lamy bottle of ink, hopefully you would want another. So ideally you'd already represent an ideal optimization for recycling the bottle. If the bottle can stay with you, that's a zero cost recycling in the best sense. Additionally, the cost of the bottles is often considered one of the more expensive elements of production from what I've heard reported. I suspect that Lamy could sell the ink refills for an attractively lower price while still getting significantly more profits from the sale. 

 

The real problem, though, with this idea, I think, is how many people actually go through a complete bottle of 50ml ink and who actually want to use that ink again? I think the current trend these days is that people do a lot of low volume ink consumption across a wide range of inks, more so than high volume consumption of a single ink. Given that Europeans mostly, apparently, rely on cartridges, and that the Japanese surely do a lot of ink sampling, rather than full bottles, that leaves the Americans. I'm not sure that's enough bottled ink users to warrant spooling up a new production line for this. I'd bet the vast majority of users rarely go through a complete single bottle of ink within a year or more. Lamy inks are already highly affordable, so my guess is that the number of customers who would take advantage of such a product isn't going to justify the costs. 

 

Which, for those of us who actually do want to go through a single bottle of ink, is a bit of a bummer.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, arcfide said:

I think the current trend these days is that people do a lot of low volume ink consumption across a wide range of inks, more so than high volume consumption of a single ink.

 

If the focus of your statement is hobbyists, as opposed to (dare I say) grassroots users in China and India for whom fountain pens are valued probably no more and no less than ballpoint pens and such, for everyday writing at work or school, then yes, I'd probably agree. The users who actually want their everyday blue or black ink as cheaply as possible, are probably the ones who writes lots, go through ink quickly, but don't really care too much about the brand or quality of the ink outside of price and availability.

 

…

 

4 hours ago, bayindirh said:

Actually, I was not looking to the picture from the perspective of discount or calling a more wealthier company into action.

 

I was referring to the O.P.:

On 8/1/2021 at 5:05 AM, Anne-Sophie said:

I would be delighted, if Lamy's pop up stores were offering an ink bottle refill or at least, a return of the glass bottle for a discount on a new bottle of ink.

 

[tim77]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:28 AM, arcfide said:

[...]

I can imagine that they could sell the ink in 50ml "refill" packets in sustainable packaging materials, along with a fresh roll of blotting paper to install. 

[...]

 

Glass *is* a sustainable material.  It's easy to recycle, and the raw materials are in plentiful supply.

Even the plastic parts of Lamy's ink bottles are more recyclable than the laminate commonly used to make refill pouches, which is entirely un-recyclable and contributes to micro-plastic pollution.

[bunnspecial]

4 hours ago, bayindirh said:

To be completely honest, Germany and most of Central Europe has pretty good recycling pipelines for plastics and glass. Similarly, we have a pretty good recycling pipeline for glass, but it's neither as advanced nor convenient for plastics.

 

My motivation for a bottle swap is to bypass the whole classify, shred, recast, reuse cycle of the recycling process and return bottles to their home for a refill. I'd not mind a discount, but I just wanted to be sure that the bottle has recycled and reused and helping another mortal being to fill their pens and pages with ink, at the same time reducing some of the clutter at my home.

Not to stray too much, but recycling of some things can be iffy although it’s dependent on exactly how it’s done. Aluminum is extremely energy intensive to refine and takes compatibly little to recycle, so it’s rare that a case against recycling can be made. Paper is on the other end of the spectrum and it’s sometimes more energy intensive to recycle than use virgin pulp. Glass is generally good to recycle, while plastic can depend on the type. 
 

With that said, many people seem to lose sight of the fact that the recycle symbol is a triangle for a reason, and represents partially three things-reduce, reuse, and then recycle last. Reducing use/production is always the best option, and reusing(which is what I understand you advocating) is preferable to recycling…

[pgomme]

Two thoughts. First, a couple of years ago, I bought a 1l bottle of Pelikan Royal Blue, and decant it into ink bottle that I've emptied (not necessarily Pelikan bottles). I've done the same with a 350ml burke of Pilot Blue Black.

 

Second, I realize that 1l is a lot of ink. Here's a place where pen clubs could play a role. The club does a bulk buy, members bring in their bottles for a refill. Everyone filling up chips in.

[bonnie-scott]

These things work when companies want them to work.  Compare fountain pen ink with printer ink.  Many people refill their printer ink cartridges using bulk bottles.  Printer Ink manufacturers provide incentives for people to recycle their cartridges and even third party suppliers will recycle/refill printer cartridges.

 

One of the earlier posts did mention larger containers that are sold by other ink manufacturers and I can recall large containers of Quick and Indian ink for schools (yes I am that old).  Also having worked in labs there are simple dispensers that fut larger bottles for dispensing 30 ml (or similar) at a time so it doesn't have be difficult or messy.  People don't like the dispensing of lab chemicals to be messy.

 

So it wouldn't be difficult to have a large bottle with standard ink colours in a shop with a dispenser for a fixed volume, the betting appear could just be provided in a small roll for the user to fit.

 

So it's just a case of companies wanting to make it happen.

[A Smug Dill]

12 minutes ago, bonnie-scott said:

So it's just a case of companies wanting to make it happen.

 

Sure, because it isn't up to the consumer or even customer to make it happen. What I'm saying is that the individual consumer who is making the suggestion isn't exactly selling the benefits of such an initiative to the companies, if the focus is on the customer getting a discount (more money in the pocket of the customer, but what's in it for the manufacturer?) and/or him or her feeling virtuous about being environmentally conscious (as opposed to giving most if not all the credit to the company, give it a better reputation or standing in the industry, and help it sell more stuff and achieve higher profit margins).

 

If the consumer wants the outcome that badly or that much, then make it primarily in the company's best interest (strategically and/or financially) to do it, let the world/environment benefit as well, and any trickle-down wins for the individual would just be an unnecessary but happy by-product if the manufacturer will play ball for its own good.

[Anne-Sophie]

 

Lamy standard ink bottles are so unique that the glass part, alone, could be used for art.

 

Bonnie-scott says "...here are simple dispensers that fut larger bottles for dispensing 30 ml (or similar) at a time so it doesn't have be difficult or messy.  People don't like the dispensing of lab chemicals to be messy.

 

So it wouldn't be difficult to have a large bottle with standard ink colours in a shop with a dispenser for a fixed volume, the betting appear could just be provided in a small roll for the user to fit."

 

That is exactly what I was thinking.

 

 

[Black Spot]

But, how much ink would they sell ? Every one uses printers all day long. Fountain pens are this little niche. Back in the old days the schools had little ink wells in the desk and the teacher would refill them from a larger bottle.  It made sense when every one used a ink pens.  

[bonnie-scott]

23 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Sure, because it isn't up to the consumer or even customer to make it happen. What I'm saying is that the individual consumer who is making the suggestion isn't exactly selling the benefits of such an initiative to the companies

Ok, accepting the premise that the consumer/customer also has to do something, what would you suggest.  How in this case would you propose the customer/consumer does this.  There are lots of 'environmental initiatives' by companies ongoing around packaging.  And this is a packaging issue.  I haven't made any mention of wanting to spend less.  Although this is a driver for many consumers there are enough consumers out there who can and do pay more for what is seen as a more environmental choice.

 

Yes there has to be a consideration of what's in it for me for the manufacturer.  In many cases better environmental packaging does lead to a reduction in costs it's just that companies emphasise the environmental aspects when they are possibly focussed  on the bottom line.

 

Like all of these things is will depend on the amount of ink actually used by consumers.  I have no feeling for how much of Lamy's turnover is in ink but I suspect the margins are higher to the overall contribution to profit is greater.  As long at it was cost neutral for Lamy I would see that there is an overall nett benefit as more of their pen buyers may choose to use Lamy inks instead of a.n.other supplier as there would be a clear USP.

 

In reality though we are just chewing the fat on our favourite forum about our favourite brand (well mine at least) which is unlikely to come to fruition.  even if, as the saying goes, Mighty Oaks - from little acorns grow.

[arcfide]

2 hours ago, bonnie-scott said:

In reality though we are just chewing the fat on our favourite forum about our favourite brand (well mine at least) which is unlikely to come to fruition.  even if, as the saying goes, Mighty Oaks - from little acorns grow.

 

I think the biggest issue here is that bottled ink seems to be less popular from my understanding in Europe and in some other places where Lamy has a strong foothold. I've heard comments from Lamy that their US market penetration, and maybe other places that rely more on bottles of ink, isn't as strong. In places like India they will be facing stiff competition for bottom line ink prices and they might not be able to compete on that level there. 

 

I would suspect that they might not be confident of recouping their investment in the idea to a significant enough level to make it worth it if they only did this in Europe. I think Sailor already does this or did do this in Japan, so they have more competition there. In the US I think they could make something of it, but the US is quite large, and I don't know if they have a strong enough foothold here yet to be able to justify that. Moreover, I feel like a lot of people don't really have a strong impression of Lamy's inks in the US, so that might be another issue. 

 

All in all, I like the idea of doing something like this, but it seems to me that the time might not be quite right for this to work out well in the way that we might hope. I do think that if we keep sending Lamy requests for something like this that they might take notice and put something into motion. 

[Fawate]

Lamy could certainly ressuscitate the World War I inks in pills, just like the ones used in trench pens. They could make a pill of dried ink that we would put in the bottle and add water to reconstitute the ink. I think that it would be nice because:

1. It would allow the reuse of the bottles

2. It would save space and shipment costs (smaller, lighter pills)

3. Could have a longer shelf life

4. It would save the cost of having a special bottle or devide to refill the bottles (I don´t imagine that shops would be happy to invest in something so specific)

5. It would release people from the trouble to go to a place to have their bottles refilled.

6. It would save space in my stock of inks.

7. It would be another curious thing to add to the collection

[david-p]

What an intriguing suggestion. I wonder if it would work with the modern ink formulation. If you have the standard Lamy bottle, anyone can add the correct amount of water, and hey presto! Just buy several colours wrapped like sweets/candies and in a tube, like those fizzy vitamin C tablets come in.

 

I like it.

 

David

[Mercian]

I can foresee a potential commercial problem with the ink pellets idea, and it’s an insoluble one (no pun intended); it is human laziness.

 

To ensure consistent reliability of an ink made by dissolving ink pellets, one would need the end-users to always and only ever dissolve them in de-ionised water.

Consumers, though, are humans - i.e lazy beasts.

 

Consumers will try to make their ink by dissolving their ink pellets in tap water.

The composition of tap water varies wildly across regions - e.g. I live in a ‘hard water’ area, but if one travels only 60Km to the north of me, the tap water is ‘soft’.

The water in London contains far more ‘lime’ than my tap water does. The chemical composition of our tap-water various remarkably.

 

This variance in chemical composition of the local tap-water will affect the chemical properties of any inks that are made by dissolving ink-pellets in it.
I.e. ink made by dissolving ink-pellets in tap-water will be inconsistent in its final composition (& performance) across the different regions of any country, and across different countries.

This variability in composition could well result in variability of performance. People might find pellet-made ink to be inconsistent, and then perceive it to be ‘unreliable’ (when the ‘unreliability’ is actually only to be found in their own behaviour).

 

Any company that sold ink-pellets is effectively staking their reputation for quality control on the reliability of consumers to only use de-ionised water.
I don’t think that one can rely on consumers using only de-ionised water as the basis for their ink - so I think that the idea of selling ink-pellets is (commercially) not viable 😔

 

[Dione]

I believe there was an attempt to make fountain pen ink for resale in powder form. It failed because after packaging the mixed powder mixture, every packet could not be guaranteed to contain the correctly required amounts of dye, bactericide, shelf life ingredient, flow ingredient etc. etc.  In order to work the ink would need to be made and mixed thoroughly as it's liquid form, then all the water would have to be removed without removing any of those vital components that may be water soluble. An impossible task.  Alternatively each dry ingredient would need to be measured separately and the same amount added to every packet. An expensive method.  One way that might work would be to send a container of dry mixture to the country where the ink was to be sold then the required amount of water could be added and the mixed ink bottled there. That could be already happening.

[david-p]

6 hours ago, Mercian said:

I can foresee a potential commercial problem with the ink pellets idea, and it’s an insoluble one (no pun intended); it is human laziness.

 

To ensure consistent reliability of an ink made by dissolving ink pellets, one would need the end-users to always and only ever dissolve them in de-ionised water.

 

What would be wrong with using distilled water, as sold everywhere for steam irons?

[arcfide]

9 hours ago, david-p said:

as sold everywhere for steam irons

 

Do you actually know people who use distilled water in their steam irons? I've never seen or even heard of someone personally purchasing distilled water for such a purpose or otherwise. They always just used the local tap water and then used the iron's "self cleaning" buttons until that no longer worked, and then various cleaning solutions after years of such abuse if they were *really* fastidious. 

 

I have heard of one family once installing a water distilling machine for their drinking water base, but that's it. 

[Black Spot]

my moment to shine! I use  distilled water in my steam iron. 

[Dione]

So do I

[david-p]

3 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Do you actually know people who use distilled water in their steam irons?

Well, for the past 20+ years it has always been available where I have shopped, in the UK, USA and EU, so I assume that people other than I use it! The small holes and tubes of an iron can easily be blocked by scale deposits. Distilled water is also not expensive.

 

But what would be the advantage of de-ionised water over distilled?