Creative globalization or cultural thievery?

[inkstainedruth]

Yeah, that.

A number of years ago there was a special touring exhibit of textiles from Bhutan (I think I saw it in the Peabody Museum in Massachusetts).  The (at least then, since this is probably more than a couple of decades ago) the Bhutanese monarchs made a point to dress in traditional clothing for special occasions, like state dinners with foreign dignitaries.  That being said....

The Bhutanese textile industry didn't think twice about glomming onto dyes (that's the main example I remember, from a talk given in conjunction with the exhibit -- possibly by the exhibit's curators) from other countries.  They didn't say, "Oh, these are not made in Bhutan! Reject!"  They said, "Ooh, pretty -- how can we incorporate these colors into our traditional textiles?"

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Tom Kellie]

~ @inkstainedruth: Thank you for that example.

 

Not only the Royal Family, but Bhutanese generally are strongly encouraged to wear the gho (males) or kira (females).

 

Until reading your helpful comment I'd never thought about the use of overseas dyes in Bhutanese textiles.

 

One of my former graduate students gave a gho to me.

 

          Tom K.

 

[Carloa]

At the Oktoberfest, I always go to the Hofbräu tent. 
In the Hofbräu tent, traditionally, there are always the New Zealanders and the Australians. The Australians buy these Tyrolean hats and the New Zealanders buy one of these short Bavarian leathertrousers. 
Of course, I bought an original Bavarian dirndl (cheap, because made of polyester, I prefer to invest in beer and Ferris wheel...); and of course: Made in China. 

 

 

At first, we only carefully practice the use of Bavarian traditions, but already at the third Mass we surpass them and all stand on the tables and sing, oh what: roar! what the voice tube gives, namely this year's Wiesn hit from Italy: 'Gelati d'Amore'. 
Then we eat an 'O'baztn', unfortunately with Camembert, so imported from France. But that's okay, we'll have another beer! 

 

After the seventh beer at the latest, we are all so drunk that the question of the cultural appropriation of Spanish property by a Toledo no longer arises, because none of us would be able to hold a fountain pen in his hand, let alone write with it. 
Yes, even holding a beer mug then becomes a cunning act of skillful physical balance,
because already standing and even sitting has to complain about a serious loss of motoric skills.

 

 

On the meadow behind the tent is a hill. There the 'beer corpses' then lie and sleep their intoxication off.
In this state, no cultural appropriation is possible. 

Unfortunately, some don't make it to the meadow. They end up in the sleep-out tent of the Red Cross and their blood is diluted with a saline solution to lower the alcohol level. 
Unfortunately, the Red Cross belongs to a Mr. Dunant and he is Swiss. The Red Cross in Munich, however, does not take it so exactly and also treats New Zealanders and Australians. 

 

 

Personally, however, I completely understand the questioner: There is a longing for the original. 
A longing for the real, for the true, for something real existing, something original.

 

Unfortunately, this idea is also stolen: From Ludwig the Second. 
Although he himself died long ago, his Neuschwanstein has at least made it to Disneyland. 

 

So you can see how cultural appropriation ensures cultural survival.

 

(I made a mistake: this is not Neuschwanstein at all, this is Juliet's balcony. An Englishman stole it. But the story, so they say, is even played and understood in Siberia. Strange. An Italian love affair: What's that got to do with the rest of the world?)

[Bo Bo Olson]

In the '72 Olympics in my weight class, I won two or three gold medals, a hand full of silver and no one counted the bronze.....in the Hofbrauhaus nightly Olympics.

Tent or main house, the October fest was happening also....or was it right after or over lapping??? ***

The party fog lasted to Easter Break.

 

IMO the New Zelanders can out drink the Aussies....they did come in after us Army Brat Americans...(often enough, not always.)...one was allowed to smoke in the beer halls. It was the era.

...............other Americans (Stateside) were out drunk by the Germans, so never made it to the nightly finals.  It was seldom the Brits made it to the finals, if so a Taffy.

 

***Playboy rated University of Maryland's Munich Campus as The Second Best Party School in the Whole World.....after richman's Yale...

 

So there were often Aussies and New Zealander's 'fringening', in the campus dorm rooms, crashed out on the floor in their sleeping bags under the fog of smoke. The lucky ones, ie me, were five to a three bedroom apartment dorm, so there was enough space on the floor for a floor full of beer drinking visitors.

 Hat BS cut....

[Carloa]

Conversely, I would like to ask: Does alcohol protect against cultural appropriation?

More precisely: At what blood alcohol level is any culture protected from misuse? 

 

I immediately undertook a self-experiment because of this, because I don't like to appropriate other people's opinions, of which I don't even know from which source they come.
I don't have a Toledo, but I do have a Pelikan with a gold nib, and the test beer was not an Augustiner, but a Pschorr. 
(But that doesn't matter: virtually all Munich beer is owned by Belgium's Interbrew, or AB and Canada's Molson Coors).

 

 

Now the question rightly arises whether drinking beer, after all in its modern form (purity law) an invention of the Bavarians, is not already an illicit form of cultural affection.
I have therefore consulted an expert in this field, namely Stephen Harrod Buhner.
I do not want to come now with the Sumerians and the Babylonians, but immediately with the result: Beer drinking is permitted; indeed a cultural appropriation, but legitimate.

 

So, now the test setup: It was quite simple. I drink a mass of beer, write a sentence and drink another mass of beer and write the same sentence again. 
When the sentence becomes illegible, an alcohol level is reached that prevents any cultural appropriation, because the communication slips into the incomprehensible.

 

 

I have photographed the test document: You can clearly see the change from mass to mass and that problems of identification arise already from the fourth mass. 
Mass six is already illegible and at mass seven the attempt was aborted.

 

As a summary one can conclude: A moderate alcohol level in human blood is an effective antidote against abusive cultural appropriation. Cheers!

 

 

[jandrew]

36 minutes ago, Carloa said:

snip ...

As a summary one can conclude: A moderate alcohol level in human blood is an effective antidote against abusive cultural appropriation. Cheers!

...

 

Research seems legit. +1

 

Canada is multicultural by nature --- we appropriate everything. We'll drink lagers, meads, ales, stouts, scotches, rums, bourbons, sour-mash ... and then, after breakfast, argue whether hockey or football (though we call it soccer here because we named another sport where you hold, carry, and throw a ball 'football' ... and we're sorry about that) is the world's greatest sport.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Back when I was at Munich Campus use to go out to the Benedictine abbey of Andechs of on a hill east of the Ammersee, (great full sized baked ham hocks....half the size of a bowling ball)

We use to say, after 5 mass of beer one could talk to JC, after 7 one could talk directly to God.

One of the world's greatest beers....as rated by Micheal Jackson.

The one with a mustache and two gloves. The one who was in the Brittish  Save The Ale campaign. Everyone needs to read his book on Beer and his book on Whiskey....after spending 7 years as a bartender found out I had no idea of Whiskey.......... didn't know my A from my Elbows.

 

Did roll down that grass covered hill once, being very loose and limber had not the slightest  from that barrel roll.

 

 

A long long time ago, when my German wasn't as good as it is now, I had been taking skiing lessons on the Zugespitze (highest German mountain) above Garmisch-Partenkirchen. Having some hours waiting for my train back to the flat lands, I ordered something I didn't know. Schweinshaxe...something from a pig, pork chops or so.

Was told it would take a while, having a book and a mass of beer, time went quickly.

In the States I had only been use to baby Hamhaocks.

The Knurdle was just about as the Schweinshaxe from a full grown4- 500 pound pig.

 

Going to have to get that book... Herbal Healing beers.. I really like Belgium beer with some that have herbs and twigs in them from a 300 year old recipe.

 

Would have thought Dutch beer would have improved with so much of the cousin of Hops there. Perhaps it can't be exported.

 

 

[PAKMAN]

31 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Back when I was at Munich Campus use to go out to the Benedictine abbey of Andechs of on a hill east of the Ammersee, (great full sized baked ham hocks....half the size of a bowling ball)

We use to say, after 5 mass of beer one could talk to JC, after 7 one could talk directly to God.

One of the world's greatest beers....as rated by Micheal Jackson.

The one with a mustache and two gloves. The one who was in the Brittish  Save The Ale campaign. Everyone needs to read his book on Beer and his book on Whiskey....after spending 7 years as a bartender found out I had no idea of Whiskey.......... didn't know my A from my Elbows.

 

Did roll down that grass covered hill once, being very loose and limber had not the slightest  from that barrel roll.

 

 

A long long time ago, when my German wasn't as good as it is now, I had been taking skiing lessons on the Zugespitze (highest German mountain) above Garmisch-Partenkirchen. Having some hours waiting for my train back to the flat lands, I ordered something I didn't know. Schweinshaxe...something from a pig, pork chops or so.

Was told it would take a while, having a book and a mass of beer, time went quickly.

In the States I had only been use to baby Hamhaocks.

The Knurdle was just about as the Schweinshaxe from a full grown4- 500 pound pig.

 

Going to have to get that book... Herbal Healing beers.. I really like Belgium beer with some that have herbs and twigs in them from a 300 year old recipe.

 

Would have thought Dutch beer would have improved with so much of the cousin of Hops there. Perhaps it can't be exported.

 

 

This gave me a wonderful flashback to my visit two years ago to Prater Amusement Park!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Oh, that crunchy skin. Near kegal ball size.

 

I take a smoked one that size and make some real fine ham and split pea soup. Even unsmoked just a bit pickled makes a fine soup.

 

 In Bamburg, is possible the best pork roast in the world.

I'd heard of it and the restaurant well before going there.

I will stop there again....as soon as I can plan a trip around that gasthaus. I drove early so got there in time for lunch..... and Bamburg has 5-6 very good smoked beers. So I was in Pig Heaven.

 

I've heard Milwaukee has good German food; so good a guy from Milwaukee, said German food made in Germany was second class. I don't think he got to Bamburg.

One could also try the Amish and Moravian areas in the US, I ate very, very well in Amish land in Pennsylvania.

They speak 16th century German.

"""Schäuferla

Schäuferla is the name for the local take on a roast shoulder of pork, a staple food in the local brewhouses and gastropubs. Still on the bone and covered with a thick layer of fat, the meat is placed in a deep pan together with a blend of meat stock and dark beer to be roasted in the oven for several hours. Once done, the meat should almost fall off the bone when it’s served with potato dumplings and cabbage.

Schäufele and potato dumplings | © Jeremy Keith / WikiCommons

Fränkische Rauchbierhaxe

Another hearty pork dish is Fränkische Rauchbierhaxe, the Upper Franconian pork knuckle dish. The meat is slowly cooked in a root vegetable stock, and the twist comes once again with the smoky flavour of Bamberg’s dark beer which is used for the gravy afterwards. The slabs of meat are often served with fried potatoes and a side salad."""""

 

I spent a very enjoyable five days there in Bamburg eating well and collecting beer, in bottles to take home and local consumption. So far, the Bamburg area has the best German beers.

As MacArthur said, "I will return!" And he didn't even have Schäuferla and Bamburg beer to return for..

[inkstainedruth]

3 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Back when I was at Munich Campus use to go out to the Benedictine abbey of Andechs of on a hill east of the Ammersee, (great full sized baked ham hocks....half the size of a bowling ball)

We use to say, after 5 mass of beer one could talk to JC, after 7 one could talk directly to God.

One of the world's greatest beers....as rated by Micheal Jackson.

The one with a mustache and two gloves. The one who was in the Brittish  Save The Ale campaign. Everyone needs to read his book on Beer and his book on Whiskey....after spending 7 years as a bartender found out I had no idea of Whiskey.......... didn't know my A from my Elbows.

 

Did roll down that grass covered hill once, being very loose and limber had not the slightest  from that barrel roll.

 

 

A long long time ago, when my German wasn't as good as it is now, I had been taking skiing lessons on the Zugespitze (highest German mountain) above Garmisch-Partenkirchen. Having some hours waiting for my train back to the flat lands, I ordered something I didn't know. Schweinshaxe...something from a pig, pork chops or so.

Was told it would take a while, having a book and a mass of beer, time went quickly.

In the States I had only been use to baby Hamhaocks.

The Knurdle was just about as the Schweinshaxe from a full grown4- 500 pound pig.

 

 

My parents were on a trip to Germany years ago and someplace they stopped for dinner, two guys from their tour group ordered something from the menu.... Schenken.  They had seen some sort bones being taken away from another table and thought that was the word for "chicken" in German....  It wasn't....  My mom told me that the "bones" were very likely to have been rabbit, not chicken....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Uncial]

I may need a lot of beer to convince myself that I  can culturally appropriate a Toledo, but hey, I can start fund raising for the process here. PM me for the address to send beer to......Weiss only please and must come with an appropriate donation towards the cultural appropriation.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Not all Bamburg beer is smoked, they have lots of them that are not.......and I know a Bamburg store where I can get almost all the local beers.........

And my advice is a single stiff shot of warm for the aroma very good cherry or pear schnaps....sipped;  will be just enough for Toledo Time....the older ones with the better nibs of course.

[Linger]

Wow.

 

That stirred up a discussion. I guess I got what I asked for. Not necessarily what I hoped for though. Some reactions were pretty sharp. Seemed to include assumptions on my part that are not there. But that is all in the game.

 

For the record, I know and acknowledge that “cultural appropriation” is a trait of homo sapiens. It simply is and it will occur. Good ideas, in every shape or form, will be absorbed, copied, integrated, improved.

 

Over time, the origin or originality of all ideas disappears. The idea becomes global. Especially with good ideas.

 

My interest is towards when on the spectrum does the idea from being truly original local move towards being completely general global. This spectrum is fluid, and the point for each idea to evolve from one stage to the other is different. Probably depending on how good the idea is.

 

Perhaps the example of the Toledo was not the best one. Pelikan has been making them for over 70 years already, and many reactions did indicate that this idea (metalworking of some kind) already passed the mark - it is no longer local. 
 

And perhaps me using the IPR argument did not help either. Louboutain tried to register the red soles of his pumps and failed. It was too generic. It drags the discussion into a yes/no direction that is not conducive to reaching the point of the discussion: where on the fluid spectrum from local to global is the idea and why, and is that point different from person to person and why?

I would still vouch that maki-e on a German pen looks a bit out of place. I also find that Maori tattoos on snow-white European football players look a bit out of place. But less with tattoos of Japanese koi carps. Weird.

 

Anyway, thanks for all reactions. The overriding sentiment seems to be that we are truly global. Perhaps there is no fluid spectrum at all. At least not for cultural creative outings. A good idea can be copied by anyone, if one is sincere, is transparent, is honest to the origins. That might mean the disappearance of own local cultural identities. We are one happy family of 7,8 billion members. So be it.

 

[N1003U]

1 hour ago, Linger said:

We are one happy family of 7,8 billion members. So be it.

I am not sure I would go that far, but it seems, so far at least, we have not yet killed ourselves off as a species, and/or destroyed the planet in the process, so I guess that is something.

[Carloa]

No, no, the question is completely justified and still unanswered; (because very complex..)

 

Let's make it simple:
What do people do at Pelikan, at Parker, at Pilot, at who knows what? Well, they make fountain pens.
And what do they do after they have made this fountain pen?
Well, another one. 
And then?
Then they run out of ideas.

 

And what do the buyers do?
Well, they buy a fountain pen?
And then what do they do?
They get bored.
So they buy another one. But another one. One that looks different. 
And then another one that looks different from everything they already have.
Because boredom is vast and all-encompassing.
You need the constant appeal of the new.

 

 

So who plunders all the ideas that cultures have ever created?
Well, you and me.
If there were no market, if there were no buyers for all this stuff, no one would think of buying a fountain pen decorated with flowers, with bows and garlands, and finding it great.
We, however, who are slaves to the little word 'new', are the real drivers of this exploitation, which takes place on all levels, materially, ideally and spiritually.

 

The paradox is: one makes oneself equal to another in order to become one's own.

Culture is basically a lack of information. Globalization eliminates all culture and now provides a counter-movement of pseudo-individualization via product identification and brand loyalty. And industry delivers mass products to a mass clientele, which thus believes it can find identity and individuality. What a grotesque mistake!

So where is the answer?

The answer is: You have to ask the question differently:
Why do I need a Pelikan Toledo at all? Why isn't a Lamy Safari enough for me?
Or to put it another way: If I have appropriated the whole world, who am I?
And if I've spent my whole life in a culturally isolated valley in the Swiss mountains, and had to carve my own fountain pen out of wood: have I missed out on anything? 
Did the Toledo of happiness then pass me by?
Or is this question also wrong?

 

[Uncial]

2 hours ago, Linger said:

My interest is towards when on the spectrum does the idea from being truly original local move towards being completely general global. This spectrum is fluid, and the point for each idea to evolve from one stage to the other is different. Probably depending on how good the idea is.

 

I think this is one area where EU legislation has been really effective and actually really good to protect crafts people; whether that be in the area of food, drink or other product that has a specific geographical area. It doesn't stop people from making a ham in almost every way like a Parma ham, but it can't be called a 'Parma' ham or a Cornish pasty without the 'Cornish', for instance (although I'm not sure if the UK still opts into this system now they have their mist of sovereignty back). It offers some protection to the preservation of the craft to a particular area, offers and encourages a local economy and gives the local product a certain status while preserving something of the cultural aspect. Toledo as a city could conceivably opt in to this within the EU legislation but (to my knowledge) they haven't. It may be that the craft specific to the city has died within it's magnificent walls. That doesn't mean it might not be revived for the future to be registered in this way.

[A Smug Dill]

42 minutes ago, Carloa said:

Globalization eliminates all culture and now provides a counter-movement of pseudo-individualization via product identification and brand loyalty.

 

That eliminates all sense from your claim, I'm afraid. In any group of humans that interact with each other, there is culture. Even if globalisation ends up assimilating all previously distinctive and separately labelled cultures, there will still be a (blended) culture that is then shared by seven billion human residents of planet Earth and passed on to the descendants (who will no doubt change it).

[MoriartyR]

Ok, there is no such crime as cultural appropriation (though I still think I would look silly if I went out dressed as a Maasai warrior or a Samurai). Nevertheless, I think we must agree there are different conventions in different societies and these affect our tastes and norms.

 

So I still assert that painting a Japanese geisha on a Pelikan pen that is designed in accordance with German sensibilities and conventions is jarring, and the pen is less good than if the painting and the pen design were more sympathetic in origin.

 

[txomsy]

Sadly, that depends.

 

If you've ever eaten pizza in two different geo-cultural setups you know that it adapts to the local taste.

 

If the local taste derives into an appreciation of a remote culture, then it's only natural that all local patrons will imitate their perception of the remote artifacts. Take China: when Occident fell to the lure of Chinaware, everything in Versailles and most capital courts was exquisitely decorated, first with artifacts taken from China, then with imitations, then nobility, burgueoisie, and ultimately everyone wanted to have Chinaware at home, and local artisans started making it, royal factories were built and wars were fought to protect the secret of the craft (not the idea).

 

If maori tattoos become in fashion, every Joe or Jane will want one. And very soon everybody will see it as "normal" in their given cultural moment.

[MoriartyR]

54 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Sadly, that depends.

 

If you've ever eaten pizza in two different geo-cultural setups you know that it adapts to the local taste.

 

If the local taste derives into an appreciation of a remote culture, then it's only natural that all local patrons will imitate their perception of the remote artifacts. Take China: when Occident fell to the lure of Chinaware, everything in Versailles and most capital courts was exquisitely decorated, first with artifacts taken from China, then with imitations, then nobility, burgueoisie, and ultimately everyone wanted to have Chinaware at home, and local artisans started making it, royal factories were built and wars were fought to protect the secret of the craft (not the idea).

 

If maori tattoos become in fashion, every Joe or Jane will want one. And very soon everybody will see it as "normal" in their given cultural moment.

Very true. But they don’t have geisha in Germany yet.