Creative globalization or cultural thievery?

[A Smug Dill]

18 hours ago, Linger said:

it stil feels somewhat wrong...

 

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts. Let’s have a philosophical discussion about it. It is not as if I only eat pizza if it is baked by Italians. But in the above-mentioned, the little voice in my head simply does not shut up...

 

If it feels wrong to you, then don't do it. You're not under any obligation to anybody else to do it.

 

Any unresolved tension between your desire for the object and your objection to your origins is your own fight and not anyone else's to share, worry about, or try to assuage with their opinion or counsel. Many a mortal has arbitrarily rejected the (living beings or inanimate) objects of their desire in the past, for whatever personal reasons that should never be incumbent on the world around him/her to resolve, e.g. by making available something equally desirable but without the emotional baggage.

 

By the way, that isn't my criticism of you; it is my philosophy. Let people struggle within and fight themselves, instead of try to make the world accommodate them, or pretend it's an inherent or agreed goal of social practices and policies to make as many people happy and satisfied as possible. Happiness is internal, so let everyone find their own way to conquer the obstacles in their mind; some will succeed, and other will fail, all without imposing on everyone else to abide by their idea of what is right and proper.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by A Smug Dill
grammar and clarification

[Bo Bo Olson]

They don't even make swords in Toledo any more out of banded Toledo iron....soft and hard iron made into steel much like the Japanese, with chants of timing.....was one of the very best of all sword steel, much better than Japanese.

Yep, my Toledo made 1902 US Army Officer's and NCO sword** is made of regular old steel. Not the great sword steel....so one should keep ones' 1911 on hand.

**Is 'new' last 30 or so years or so old.

 

If Pelikan's Toledo, was made of Toledo steel, your complaint might have merit.

My Hunter is 925 silver....not a bit of sword steel.....don't know much of what the other Toledo's are made of.

[sirgilbert357]

56 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

If it feels wrong to you, then don't do it. You're not under any obligation to anybody else to do it.

 

Any unresolved tension between your desire for the object and your objection to your origins is your own fight and not anyone else's to share, worry about, or try to assuage with their opinion or counsel. Many a mortal have arbitrarily rejected the (living beings or inanimate) objects of their desire in the past for whatever personal reasons that should never be incumbent on the world around him/her to resolve, e.g. by making available something equally desirable but without the emotional baggage.

 

By the way, that isn't my criticism of you; it is my philosophy. Let people fight themselves, instead of try to make the world accommodate them, or pretend it's an inherent or agreed goal of social practices and policies to make as many people happy and satisfied as possible. Happiness is internal, so let everyone find their own way to conquer the obstacles in their mind; some will succeed, and other will fail, all without imposing on everyone else to abide by their idea of what is right and proper.

 

What a refreshing viewpoint...

 

If only the rest of the world saw things like this. I've always had that view too, and it's only gotten stronger as more of the culture around me tells me how horrible I am just because I don't agree with their philosophy. I never knew we were all obligated to agree with the culture around us...(sarcasm).

[alexwi]

3 hours ago, sirgilbert357 said:

I never knew we were all obligated to agree with the culture around us...(sarcasm).

But you are, at least here, in the US. 😉

 

Never have so many been so discriminated and ostracized for not showing the correct type of "tolerance" or so many viewed as idiots because their opinions break with "tradition."

 

As @A Smug Dill so succinctly put it, there's really no need, and it serves no purpose, really, for everybody to agree on any given issue.

 

alex

[Lam1]

11 hours ago, MoriartyR said:

I wouldn’t call it cultural appropriation but I do find the Pelikan maki-e pens very odd.

 

The lack of authenticity inherent in painting a Japanese geisha or maple tree onto a standard German pen detracts significantly from the value (to me). Some of them are quite beautiful but I feel that if you are paying thousands of dollars for fine, traditional Japanese artistry, the pen on which the art is placed should be a suitable fit. And I am hard-pressed to think of a less fitting pen for displaying Japanese art than a Pelikan - the shape and style clash terribly with the mood of the art.

I don’t like fusion cuisine either.

 

 

 

But, just out of curiosity, what would be a genuine Japanese FP that would be suitable for Urushi/Maki-e?

 

As far as I understand, the Japanese did not invented the FP, nor any of the filling systems (maybe they modified the eyedropper with the shut off valve), nor the torpedo shape, nor the flat tops, etc. So, it seems to me that, by this reasoning, those techniques (Maki-e and Urushi) are out of place in any pen, even the ones produced in Japan, since FPs "are" a "western" thing.

 

Of course, to each their own. If one likes/dislikes something, it is all that matters (IMO).

 

 

I like the Toledos, and if Pelikan ever produces one again, I shall receive mine that has been ordered 8 months ago.

As for Pelikan Maki-e pens, the only thing I don't like about them is the price: I can't  afford it!

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, alexwi said:

As @A Smug Dill so succinctly put it, there's really no need, and it serves no purpose, really, for everybody to agree on any given issue.

 

It seems to me you're intentionally misrepresenting my position. In order for social order to be possible, I think it's crucial for everyone within a lawful society to agree what the law is, especially when they have no part of and little say in making and repealing laws, but not necessarily agree on what the law ought to be. 

 

> room for coexistence¹ 

> social order²

> suppression of overt interpersonal/inter-group conflicts³ 

> group harmony 

> individual happiness

 

There is no purpose in resolving someone else's inner conflicts, unless I'm managing him/her as a resource or asset, and want to squeeze out more productivity or a higher level of compliance. As peers and equals who are not trying to use each other, due respect is to let each other sort out their own internal mechanisms and blockages.

 

Whatever Pelikan has done with its Toledo, raden and maki-e pen models is no threat to anything above inner happiness, whereas I think to frame it as cultural thievery is to attempt to raise it to a cause for conflict between entities.

 

¹ However painful, bitter or unsatisfying one's own existence is, having to share the world with others unlike oneself.

² However miserable or disempowered aspects of such stricture makes particular individuals.

³ Originally I wrote ‘peace’ there as a shorthand, but that is apt to be misinterpreted and/or misrepresented.

 

[Lam1]

20 hours ago, Linger said:

...

The issue is that I am struggling a bit with a German penmaker using a Spanish cultural heritage in its design. Of course one could argue that the technique/art-form applied is Arab and not even Spanish, but let’s leave that aside for the sake of clarity and simplicity.

...

 

 

I can't leave it aside  , since it is central to your argument that the technique is Spanish ... but then, it isn't? Where does one draw the (artificial) line?

So, only Arab made pens could have a "Toledo" overlay? But are FPs an Arab (or Spanish) invention? And isn't Toledo in Spain? I'm confused  . 

 

IMO, if you like them, get them. If you don't like them, that is it!

[Aether]

A bit hilarious that the OP struggles with 'culture appropriation' of Toledo pen made in Germany company and at the same time asks us ignore the Arabic influence. I dont get it.

[N1003U]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

It seems to me you're intentionally misrepresenting my position. In order for social order to be possible, I think it's crucial that everyone within a lawful society to agree what the law is, especially when they have no part of and little say in making and repealing laws, but not necessarily agree on what the law ought to be. 

 

> room for coexistence^† 

> social order‡

> suppression of overt interpersonal/inter-group conflicts 

> group harmony 

> individual happiness

 

There is no purpose in resolving someone else's inner conflicts, unless I'm managing him/her as a resource or asset, and want to squeeze more productivity or a higher level of compliance. As peers and equals who are not trying to use each other, due respect is to let them sort out their own internal mechanisms and blockages.

 

Whatever Pelikan has done with its Toledo, raden and maki-e pen models is no threat to anything above inner happiness, whereas I think to frame it as cultural thievery is to attempt to raise it to a cause for conflict between entities.

 

^† However painful, bitter or unsatisfying one's own existence is, having to share the world with others unlike oneself.

‡ However miserable or disempowered aspects of such stricture makes particular individuals.

well said. Especially the last sentence, which not only very well address the original post, but it is a good summary, with less emotion, of what I suspect several others here are saying.

[txomsy]

13 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

I'm merely trying to make the point that "cultural appropriation" is not a valid concept in the first place.

 

Don't worry, I fully understood your comment in fair, good faith. And while I may most likely agree with you on this point, for bad or for good, things are not so clear cut any longer. Maybe it was me who was too harsh on my answer. As you say the written word is a less-than-ideal way of conveying non-verbal (meta)language.

 

This is a most difficult topic to treat on FPN, but needs to, anyway.

 

Up and until late 20th Century, ideas were considered to reside in an "ideal" world, and deemed unpatentable and automatically shared for the common wealth of Humanity.

 

With the exhaustion of Natural resources at the turn of the 20th Century there has been an increased push to protect so called "Intellectual property", which is continuously getting dangerously closer to the world of ideas (and sometimes ridiculous, but still upheld for whatever reasons). I'm thinking of the "butnot" MS patent, or the patents on how to allocate productivity premiums, or the patent on turmeric properties described in the Upanishads, or so many others.

 

Now we have "Immaterial Human Heritage", but also patents on "abstract" methods or even book plots.

 

We have Protected Origin Designations, which try to avoid misleading advertising, where a low quality product is sold "by similarity" as if it were a renowned one to capitalize on hard earned fame by the original makers, which is not to say derivatives cannot be better (or more frequently significantly worse) than the original.

 

And indeed, in this thread, we are not talking ideas. This talk is actually about the use of names, designations, from the beginning.

 

Much as you would be offended if I posted under your name, impersonating you, ideas you do not agree with, others may be offended by someone using their name to harm their reputation.

 

In the context of all these new protections, the OP question might make some sense. Only, in this case "Toledo" would be a total misnomer indeed. Actually (just remembered the last time I was in Toledo), in modern Toledo, the technique is usually called "Damascening" (damasquinado). Which comes to show both designations have been diluted and confused over the centuries.

 

In my own experience, a Champagne is most of the time very different from most other sparkling wines that were once sold under that "umbrella" name, even from cuvées or cavas, with an own character, and only in a very tiny amount of occasions have I found something that I could consider really equiparable or better. And note that I am not French or a "sommelier".

 

OTOH nowadays what most people call Moka has nothing to do with or remotely resemble (not even in the wildest dreams) the original coffee. Is this right either?

 

So, while I agree ideas should be kept in the er, ideal Realm of Ideas, and circulate freely, I can also understand some people trying to defend their hard earned reputation or to avoid misleading misnomers.

So, to which extent should anything be protected? That's politics and I won't get in there. I may be more in accord with you than you think (or maybe not, can't really tell what you really think), but facts have an insidious way to creep into one's life.

 

On that same line, and regarding the hopeful duration of this fashion fade on owning / protecting not only names but also ideas, let me just point out that probably similar discussions ensued when the press was invented. Prior, anyone would hand copy any book and share or spread it, afterwards, to ensure the viability of press production, avoiding value dilution if free copying was allowed, exclusive rights were granted. So far, it seems that this strategy has stuck for 500+ years.

 

Whether I like it or not, those are the facts I see. As I do, I guess others do as well, and whether one agrees (as the OP) or not (as many others), it is a topic worth considering, at least for some.

 

Personally I do agree that ideas should be free. And that methods after patent expiration too. Toledo/Damascening or Urushi techniques come under that category. I'm not against Pelikan using any technique they fancy. Or anyone else.

 

But I am not so sure about names, and see reasons for and against protection, for and against temporal, extended or permanent protection, etc., however, that's politics and I won't venture any further.

[Uncial]

Last time I was in Toledo the place was coming down with items made using this unique craft.....not.

 

I can fully understand protecting economies of a locale which has the effect of preserving knowledge and craft. So I can understand that Parma ham elsewhere can't hold the name 'Parma' etc, but is there really a significant craft of this type in Toledo? Honestly, I didn't see it. Are pens made that mark historical events/people/art subject tot he same accusation? I think if you go this far it's not so much an issue of cultural (mis)appropriation but a problem of hyper-tribalism/nationalism.

[N1003U]

In addition to A Smug Dill's pithy and well organized commentary above, I think perhaps my thoughts on this subject were also captured quite illustratively by Groucho Marx some 76 years ago.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

7 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Whatever Pelikan has done with its Toledo, raden and maki-e pen models is no threat to anything above inner happiness, whereas I think to frame it as cultural thievery is to attempt to raise it to a cause for conflict between entities.

 

 

this, this exactly! (not that i think the OP is guilty of this, but that rather the OP has simply been caught up in the propaganda of Cultural Appropriation)

 

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

 

Don't worry,

...

further.

I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped. I wasn't trying to debate IP Laws, although there are some issues there, such as "patenting" a gene that was found IN THE WILD... last i checked you couldn't PATENT something you didn't INVENT... (if the company had INVENTED/CREATED the gene I would be more amenable to it being patented)

 

What I was trying to address is strictly the concept of "Cultural Appropriation", how it is invalid as a concept, and how it was created and perpetuated strictly as a means to control and separate us as people from one another.

From a macro level, it appears to be nothing more than a re-implementation of Divide and Rule, which I suspect is exactly what it is and always has been.

 

I accept responsibility for any confusion I caused.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I guess Pelikan can get away with it, no one else complained about it being called a Toledo, since the 1930's.

As far as I know no other pen company sells a similar overlay with that name.....not even in Toledo.

[Karmachanic]

1 hour ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

....not even in Toledo.

 

Pelikan's making pens in Ohio? 🤡

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Just now, Karmachanic said:

 

Pelikan's making pens in Ohio? 🤡

sadly, this is more likely than Parker or Sheaffer making pens in North America ever again...

 

[sirgilbert357]

4 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

sadly, this is more likely than Parker or Sheaffer making pens in North America ever again...

 

 

Seriously...

[alexwi]

13 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

It seems to me you're intentionally misrepresenting my position.

I misread your position.

[inkstainedruth]

8 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Pelikan's making pens in Ohio? 🤡

After reading the Groucho Marx link, I found that I was thinking along somewhat similar lines to you, Karmachanic: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npC9c1hXVkQ

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[jmccarty3]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:37 PM, sirgilbert357 said:

 

Well said. Agreed. Sick of the division in EVERY aspect of life. It's a pen that showcases beautiful art. Don't overthink it.

 

+1