Creative globalization or cultural thievery?

[Linger]

Dear bird lovers, i am fighting a conundrum and would welcome your input.

 

My flock consists of:

 

M1005 Stresemann EF

M800 green/black M

M805 blue/black silver trim F

 

And I am thinking about a Toledo M900 B or IB.

 

The issue is that I am struggling a bit with a German penmaker using a Spanish cultural heritage in its design. Of course one could argue that the technique/art-form applied is Arab and not even Spanish, but let’s leave that aside for the sake of clarity and simplicity.

 

Should Pelikan stick to their local origins and limit themselves to German/North-West-European influences? Or can they freely borrow from Spanish (Toledo) or Japanese (Raden and maki-e) cultural highlights and achievements? Are we so globalized that the origin of cultural influences become fully fluid, so that everybody can use everybody else’s inventions and developments? Or should there be an Intellectual Property Right on these design characteristics? Like only the bubbly wine from that region can be called Champagne and the rest simply cannot? Do we loose our identity when Germans use Spanish/Japanese cultural expressions?

 

It nags me...even though I whole-heartedly admit that the M1000 Green Raden and the M900 Toledo are stunning pieces of absolute beauty (in fact, I would go as far as to admit that the Pelikan design fits 100,0% with the use of raden technique...the Pelikan “stripes” are just perfect for it), and I would love to own them both...it stil feels somewhat wrong...

 

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts. Let’s have a philosophical discussion about it. It is not as if I only eat pizza if it is baked by Italians. But in the above-mentioned, the little voice in my head simply does not shut up...

 

 

 

[VWL]

I think everyone who cares, will know a "knock off" when they see one, and will pay appropriately. Unfortunately, it's difficult to trademark general culture items, especially if they are included with technology, unless the technology itself is copy written. I remember when those " Sherpa hats?" that were all the rage. I bet every one I saw was not made in Nepal.

[Karmachanic]

Then I guess you'll have to stop using those Arabic numbers, Roman alphabet, and stay away from that Chinese ketchup. Be sure to get rid of the Chinese paper too. And so on.

 

Just sayin'.

[txomsy]

Was about to say the same.

 

There is an alternative though: if you have an idea, new or not, you like, just give it a new name so nobody feels intruded upon their "consuetudinary" rights. Then we will have a mess of words and language but everybody will be happy.

 

Actually, the "Toledo" finish has little resemblance to actual, original Toledo craftsmanship, and is generally used to refer to more or less intricate metal overlays, much like "China" can generally used to refer to tableware. Words often change to designate entities other than those they were originally intended to.

 

I do not see any problem with that.

[Al-fresco]

As a general rule I tend to prefer things that overlap national boundaries and cultures - like Alsatian wine, that unique style that overlaps both German and French traditions.  (I also like the wines of the Alto Adige for the Italian/German fusion.)  And it's way too late to put the genie back in the bottle as far as the visual arts and music are concerned - you can no more take Irish music out of Bluegrass than you can extract the Japanese influences from Monet.  And you have to pull down most of the stately homes in England. (Not that I'm not tempted!)  But in the specific case of Pelikan, the Habsburg's were rulers of both Spain and the Holy Roman Empire - so on that basis alone I'd say that Toledo is fair game. 

[Glenn Atkins]

I've never thought of pen design elements as cultural appropriation.

 

Glenn

[N1003U]

I would buy the pen and enjoy the art and craftsmanship. The Toledos are beautiful!

 

As marketing flyers go, Pelikan does a great job of describing the history of the technique (and thereby attributing its source(s)), and I would bet a significant sum of money that they are inflicting precisely zero damage on Syrian and/or Spanish pen makers and/or tradespeople by offering what is essentially a tribute to an ancient, interesting, and beautiful metalworking technique.
 
If Pelikan were selling this as an original Prussian metal cladding technique, I might have a bit of reservation, but only with regard to competence of the Pelikan marketing team.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

6 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Then I guess you'll have to stop using those Arabic numbers, Roman alphabet, and stay away from that Chinese ketchup. Be sure to get rid of the Chinese paper too. And so on.

 

Just sayin'.

And American jeans, and American computers.
 

OP you said yourself that you don’t insist that your pizza be made by Italians. 
Why not?… This of no different, not one bit. Once something is in the world, it’s out there and anyone can make it and anyone can use it. Everyone steals everything from everyone else. We always have.
That’s how the world works: one person comes up with a good idea, it is recognized as being a good idea and adopted by the wider population. 

Buy the pen. Enjoy the craftsmanship. 

[txomsy]

Don't be so harsh. The OP might have a point. I'm thinking of Urushi as a traditional technique vinculated to specific Japanese artisans and locations. Nowadays many techniques, craftsmanships and arts have a protected denomination and people may claim as misleading any advertisement of such goods made by anyone else, with non-approved techniques or in different places or even purporting to be without the corresponding seal of approval.

 

I doubt that be the case for "Toledo" or "Damascus", though. They became a general term (like "China") long, long ago. Plus, as already stated, most of Europe belonged to some or the other European country at any one point in time. And with occupation came large cultural exchange and interbreeding.

[MoriartyR]

I wouldn’t call it cultural appropriation but I do find the Pelikan maki-e pens very odd.

 

The lack of authenticity inherent in painting a Japanese geisha or maple tree onto a standard German pen detracts significantly from the value (to me). Some of them are quite beautiful but I feel that if you are paying thousands of dollars for fine, traditional Japanese artistry, the pen on which the art is placed should be a suitable fit. And I am hard-pressed to think of a less fitting pen for displaying Japanese art than a Pelikan - the shape and style clash terribly with the mood of the art.

I don’t like fusion cuisine either.

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

29 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Don't be so harsh. The OP might have a point. I'm thinking of Urushi as a traditional technique vinculated to specific Japanese artisans and locations. Nowadays many techniques, craftsmanships and arts have a protected denomination and people may claim as misleading any advertisement of such goods made by anyone else, with non-approved techniques or in different places or even purporting to be without the corresponding seal of approval.

 

I doubt that be the case for "Toledo" or "Damascus", though. They became a general term (like "China") long, long ago. Plus, as already stated, most of Europe belonged to some or the other European country at any one point in time. And with occupation came large cultural exchange and interbreeding.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to point out how utterly ridiculous it is to try and enforce "cultural appropriation" "rules". 

I want to make it clear (since forums lack any kind of body language or voice inflection) I am not trying to dogpile on the OP or on txomsy. 

 

This is not me screaming at my computer screen that I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm merely trying to make the point that "cultural appropriation" is not a valid concept in the first place.

 

Humanity has ALWAYS absorbed good ideas from other people and other groups.

 

Here's the thing, what's the difference between Champagne and Sparkling wine? One of them is made in a specific area by a small (rich) group who created a special interest group to push for a trademark. That's it. And that trademark is only enforceable where that special interest group has spent enough money to convince the government to enforce it. It's just marketing. And without that marketing it's just carbonated wine.

 

Urushi is a technique with a specific product. (as is my understanding) So as long as someone is following that technique and using that product, do they have to be Japanese? What about a black guy working IN japan? would it count then? or a Japanese guy working in the US?... and isn't urushi the same thing as Chinese Lacquer? It's not a trademark, it's like saying steel is "heat treated". There can be good quality and bad quality urushi, but it's still urushi.

 

Now, txomsy, your argument is that Toledo and Damascus became "general terms" "long ago". But who determines how "long ago" is long enough that we no longer need to worry about "cultural appropriation"? At what point in time did just hammering a cable flat and getting a cool pattern from it and calling it "Damascus" STOP being "cultural appropriation"? And who got to decide that it was "no longer" "cultural appropriation"?

 

Should we all stop drinking coffee because its culturally appropriating from the Ethiopians?... Or is it ok since it's been happening since the 1600s?...
 

Hawaiian pizza was invented in a small city in Ontario Canada! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza) by a GREEK BORN Canadian!

So, are only greeks allowed to make and eat it?

Are only Canadians allowed to make and eat it?

Are only Hawaiians (who had nothing to do with its invention at all) allowed to make and eat it?

Maybe only that ONE guy, the guy who invented it, gets to sell it and eat it...

Or again, maybe only Italians can make it, since they invented pizza...

Is it a ridiculous argument, as is all "cultural appropriation"?

Yes. It is. And that is my point.

(especially since pineapple does NOT under ANY circumstances belong on pizza in the first place!!! )

 

The (Japanese) Toyota Land Cruiser and the British Land Rover were both blatant copies of the US WW2 Jeep.

Should we now retroactively cancel Land Cruisers and Land Rovers for "cultural appropriation"?

 

 

If you carry it to it's logical conclusion, then by all means, stop wearing, eating, drinking, reading, listening to, using or thinking about anything not directly invented by whatever small cultural sub-group you were born into.

 

Alternatively; HUMANITY can go on finding and championing good ideas and sharing them, like we have always done.

 

All of this is ridiculousness that has been pushed on us to separate us and to try and make us turn on one another, because there are people who benefit from that. 

 

"Cultural appropriation" is just segregation under the guise of Political Correctness.

Plain and Simple.

They have the same end goal: to keep us apart.

 

OP: buy the pen, enjoy the pen. (it's a beautiful pen!)

Because apparently, Pelikan has been making them for 90 years.

https://thepelikansperch.com/2016/11/05/pelikan-m900-toledo-controversy/

 

[Karmachanic]

19 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Hawaiian pizza

 

Because pineapple.  Which is indigenous to the Caribbean, and northern shores of South America.  On and on it goes, ad infinitum; ad absurdum.  One day soon, hopefully,  "cultural appropriation" will wear itself out.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

59 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

 One day soon, hopefully,  "cultural appropriation" will wear itself out.

hear, hear!

 

[sirgilbert357]

5 hours ago, GAtkins said:

I've never thought of pen design elements as cultural appropriation.

 

Glenn

 

I never even thought such a thing was possible.

 

Doesn't "appropriation" mean you are laying claim to the thing in question? Pelikan has never asserted it has any roots but its true German ones that I know of. Having a pen embellished with all forms of art from the world over simply means they enjoy making pens with that art style and expect it will sell.

 

Similar thought: should I only have "American" art in my house?? Why? I'd be in trouble in that case...

[sirgilbert357]

1 hour ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Please understand, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to point out how utterly ridiculous it is to try and enforce "cultural appropriation" "rules". 

I want to make it clear (since forums lack any kind of body language or voice inflection) I am not trying to dogpile on the OP or on txomsy. 

 

This is not me screaming at my computer screen that I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm merely trying to make the point that "cultural appropriation" is not a valid concept in the first place.

 

Humanity has ALWAYS absorbed good ideas from other people and other groups.

 

Here's the thing, what's the difference between Champagne and Sparkling wine? One of them is made in a specific area by a small (rich) group who created a special interest group to push for a trademark. That's it. And that trademark is only enforceable where that special interest group has spent enough money to convince the government to enforce it. It's just marketing. And without that marketing it's just carbonated wine.

 

Urushi is a technique with a specific product. (as is my understanding) So as long as someone is following that technique and using that product, do they have to be Japanese? What about a black guy working IN japan? would it count then? or a Japanese guy working in the US?... and isn't urushi the same thing as Chinese Lacquer? It's not a trademark, it's like saying steel is "heat treated". There can be good quality and bad quality urushi, but it's still urushi.

 

Now, txomsy, your argument is that Toledo and Damascus became "general terms" "long ago". But who determines how "long ago" is long enough that we no longer need to worry about "cultural appropriation"? At what point in time did just hammering a cable flat and getting a cool pattern from it and calling it "Damascus" STOP being "cultural appropriation"? And who got to decide that it was "no longer" "cultural appropriation"?

 

Should we all stop drinking coffee because its culturally appropriating from the Ethiopians?... Or is it ok since it's been happening since the 1600s?...
 

Hawaiian pizza was invented in a small city in Ontario Canada! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza) by a GREEK BORN Canadian!

So, are only greeks allowed to make and eat it?

Are only Canadians allowed to make and eat it?

Are only Hawaiians (who had nothing to do with its invention at all) allowed to make and eat it?

Maybe only that ONE guy, the guy who invented it, gets to sell it and eat it...

Or again, maybe only Italians can make it, since they invented pizza...

Is it a ridiculous argument, as is all "cultural appropriation"?

Yes. It is. And that is my point.

(especially since pineapple does NOT under ANY circumstances belong on pizza in the first place!!! )

 

The (Japanese) Toyota Land Cruiser and the British Land Rover were both blatant copies of the US WW2 Jeep.

Should we now retroactively cancel Land Cruisers and Land Rovers for "cultural appropriation"?

 

 

If you carry it to it's logical conclusion, then by all means, stop wearing, eating, drinking, reading, listening to, using or thinking about anything not directly invented by whatever small cultural sub-group you were born into.

 

Alternatively; HUMANITY can go on finding and championing good ideas and sharing them, like we have always done.

 

All of this is ridiculousness that has been pushed on us to separate us and to try and make us turn on one another, because there are people who benefit from that. 

 

"Cultural appropriation" is just segregation under the guise of Political Correctness.

Plain and Simple.

They have the same end goal: to keep us apart.

 

OP: buy the pen, enjoy the pen. (it's a beautiful pen!)

Because apparently, Pelikan has been making them for 90 years.

https://thepelikansperch.com/2016/11/05/pelikan-m900-toledo-controversy/

 

 

Well said. Agreed. Sick of the division in EVERY aspect of life. It's a pen that showcases beautiful art. Don't overthink it.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

13 minutes ago, sirgilbert357 said:

 

I never even thought such a thing was possible.

 

Doesn't "appropriation" mean you are laying claim to the thing in question? Pelikan has never asserted it has any roots but its true German ones that I know of. Having a pen embellished with all forms of art from the world over simply means they enjoy making pens with that art style and expect it will sell.

 

Similar thought: should I only have "American" art in my house?? Why? I'd be in trouble in that case...

Well, at least you'd have Norman Rockwell (I am not saying this sarcastically, I genuinely like his work)

[sirgilbert357]

17 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Well, at least you'd have Norman Rockwell (I am not saying this sarcastically, I genuinely like his work)

 

And maybe Ansel Adams?? I know some of his work was US stuff...

[alexwi]

Hi @Linger,

 

No one's hiding the fact that it's Pelikan applying a Spanish technique (if I understood correctly). They could've just as easily applied the technique and call it something else.

 

I think it's cool that they paid full homage to the technique and wouldn't feel offended if a house like Parker decided to delve into Maki-e or Urushi techniques. If applied true to their respective traditions, I can't see why they couldn't be called what they truly are. And you said it yourself, you don't need all your pizzas to come from Rome.

 

It's possible that there's something else bothering you about this whole thing and you haven't quite put your finger in it, because your nagging sensation about Toledo while happily eating pizzas made outside of Italy by non-Italians lack coherence.

 

BTW, you got me to reading a bit, and yours is not the first controversy surrounding this gorgeous pen: https://thepelikansperch.com/2016/11/05/pelikan-m900-toledo-controversy/

 

Alex

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

8 minutes ago, sirgilbert357 said:

 

And maybe Ansel Adams?? I know some of his work was US stuff...

Yes!  Great stuff!

[Uncial]

Ive always strongly objected to the cultural misappropriation of the lower Mesopotamian valley basin and how we all just so carelessly stole their idea and twisted it to our own ends so that it doesn't even look like proper clay inscribed writing anymore. Is outrage!