An alternative look at ink wetness

[thirstyfish]

I love this thread. I am a big advocate of the right ink for a particular pen I use it all the time to look for the inks i have to match to a dry/wet pen etc.  Also to ensure I am using low PH inks in my rubber sac vintage pens.  Good stuff! I cant thank you enough as to how much i appreciate your hard work and how it benefits me and i'm sure the wider pen community.  Again my sincere thanks and i look forward to each and every update to see if another ink i have has been tested.

[InesF]

12 hours ago, thirstyfish said:

I love this thread. I am a big advocate of the right ink for a particular pen I use it all the time to look for the inks i have to match to a dry/wet pen etc.  Also to ensure I am using low PH inks in my rubber sac vintage pens.  Good stuff! I cant thank you enough as to how much i appreciate your hard work and how it benefits me and i'm sure the wider pen community.  Again my sincere thanks and i look forward to each and every update to see if another ink i have has been tested.

Thank you so much! 🙏 You are highly welcome! I'm pleased with the table improving your navigation through the ink labyrinth.  

 

If you have a special wish, let me know. If it is an ink I can get here in Europe, chances are that I will grab it sooner or (more probable) later.

[AceNinja]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:46 AM, InesF said:

There is an update of the ink properties table. Not much to tell, except the number of measured inks has grown to 121:

 

 

PS: 5 more inks arrived this week ....

I'm surprised to find that most Pelikan 4001 inks has very low pH value, which means they're very acidic, even the royal blue, especially the blue black.

Seeing this, makes me wonder, is long term uses with steel need going to be ok?

[InesF]

2 hours ago, AceNinja said:

I'm surprised to find that most Pelikan 4001 inks has very low pH value, which means they're very acidic, even the royal blue, especially the blue black.

Seeing this, makes me wonder, is long term uses with steel need going to be ok?

Thanks for the question.

Corrosion of non-precious metals can start already at neutral pH value, if water and oxygen is present! Think of rust on weather exposed iron.

 

Fountain pen nibs are, as far as my knowledge goes, not any longer made from pure iron. What is called steel in this context is usually a corrosion free alloy of iron with (whatever) something else that increases the red-ox-potential of the alloy above zero, maybe far above zero. That means, it will not corrode (oxidise) at ambient conditions, even if in presence of acids.

 

Any modern fountain pen nib is resistant against any modern fountain pen ink. To corrode such a nib you will need to add oxidisers to the ink, such as nitric acid or H₂O₂ or such.

 

Dip pen nibs are, in majority, still made of "normal" iron and can and will corrode over time.

[InesF]

A short update.

The number of inks is still growing (despite my moratorium) now counting 129 inks.

As the image copy of the spreadsheet became almost unreadable, I decided to transfer the data into a Google doc and make it available under this link.

Please do not expect frequent updates - my moratorium has not ended. However, from time to time I receive some more inks and will insert the measurement results occasionally.

[RedPie]

@InesF Thanks for the link!

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, InesF said:

I decided to transfer the data into a Google doc and make it available under this link.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I actually refer to this fairly often when trying to figure out flow or pH or some other thing when questions come up.  The option to search for an ink is most appreciated!

[InesF]

You are welcome, @RedPie and @LizEF!

Indeed, I totally forgot about searching for an ink. My typical way of search is something like: "what is the most dry red?" or "which blue is more wet, R&K or Pelikan 4001?".  

[InesF]

The ink data table has received seven new entries. It can be accessed here.

 

The new inks of todays update are:

Montblanc / Gustav Klimt
Pelikan Edelstein / Golden Lapis
Graf v.F.-C. / Deep Sea Green
Sailor / Ink Studio 223
Sailor / Ink Studio 280
Akkerman / Vermeer’s Kobaltblauw
Wearingeul / A Room of One’s Own

[Claes]

Danke vielmals, @InesF!

 

MfG
Claes in Lund, Schweden

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, InesF said:

The ink data table has received seven new entries. It can be accessed here.

 

The new inks of todays update are:

Montblanc / Gustav Klimt
Pelikan Edelstein / Golden Lapis
Graf v.F.-C. / Deep Sea Green
Sailor / Ink Studio 223
Sailor / Ink Studio 280
Akkerman / Vermeer’s Kobaltblauw
Wearingeul / A Room of One’s Own

  Thanks!

[RedPie]

Thank you @InesF! You put a lot of work in this.

[InesF]

Thank you, @Claes, @LizEF and @RedPie, you are welcome!

As before, more updates may come occasionally.

[carola]

@InesF Your ink chart just helped me to resolve the question why one of my pens just didn´t want to write like it should. I had received a sample of Fritz Schimpf Sommerwind, which is - as I found out here - very much on the dry side of the spectrum (even fairly low down on the list of inks with low and very low delivery) and the pen just wouldn´t have it. When I swapped that ink for one of my all-time favourites, Rohrer & Klingner Alt-Goldgrün, which I found up in the middle of the inks with medium-high delivery, the results were considerably better. So... thank you very much.

 

I would also like to suggest some inks for your testing. Not having read all of the 24 pages of this thread, I don´t know if any of them have been named before. If you like, I could bring those inks with me to this year´s Pelikan Hub in Vienna (supposing you will be attending again) and you could take samples so you won´t have to buy them all. (Those I have put in bold letters are my favourite inks on this list.)

• Diamine Amber
• Diamine Communication Breakdown
• Diamine Eau de Nil
• Diamine Grey
• Diamine Orange
• Diamine Racing Green
• Diamine Red Dragon
• Diamine Umber
• Fritz Schimpf Zwischenlicht
• Iroshizuku syo-ro
• J. Herbin Lie de Thé
• J. Herbin Lierre Sauvage
• J. Herbin Vert Empire
• J. Herbin Vert Olive
• Kaweco Ruby Red
• Lamy Blue
• Lamy Crystal Peridot
• Montblanc Royal Blue
• Sailor Manyo Ukikusa

[InesF]

Hi @carola, you are welcome! I'm pleased by your response - happy about the measurements were of help for you!

 

No need to read all the 24 pages of the thread, the results are in the data table and the text amalgamation is in the publication.

I learned a lot during the first round of measurements about inks and how a (well designed!) fountain pen regulates the ink delivery. But I also recognised some repeating patterns in inks from certain manufacturers - while others make unpredictable compositions.

 

The Diamine inks will be spread between the middle and the lower side of the surface tension range, while Lamy Blue, Montblanc Blue and (all) F.Schimpf inks will be at the high surface tension end. Iroshizuku, J.Herbin (maybe except orange and blue) and deAtramentis inks are always at the low surface tension end with the Pilot inks much better behaving because of their high pH-value. I guess, Kaweco will be middle to high and the Sailor is, unfortunately, completely unpredictable.

That should reduce the workload (the full list of inks would keep me busy for two weeks, or so).

 

It may make sense to measure Eau de Nil and the Sailor Manyo ink.

 

I intend to visit the 2025 Pelikan Hub in Vienna. You may bring these samples - or you send them to me already before. The measurements consume ca. 10 mL per ink.

All the best, Servus

InesF

[InesF]

A short update:

The list of measured inks has grown to 144 entries!

You find the data table here.

 

Have a good time!

[Claes]

Danke vielmals, Ines!

 

Claes in Lund, Schweden

[LizEF]

Hey, @InesF, someone over on reddit said, "I just wish someone could test capillary action of different inks... IMO it would be the most useful info for evaluating the ink flow."  My thoughts are #1: I don't know what this would look like   and #2: I doubt it would tell us more than your spreadsheet (which appears to be gaining popularity over there, too).

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Liz

[InesF]

12 hours ago, LizEF said:

Thoughts?

Hi @LizEF, thanks for doing these cross-communication between FPN and Reddit. I see many of your posts there!  

But I didn't see the question about capillary action.

The short answer is: one of the possible methods to measure surface tension is by capillary action.

 

This is a page from my (vintage) German textbook about physical-chemical measurement methods (Näser K-H, 1976) with the capillary action method (chapter 3.1.2.2)

For my measurements I used the better accessible stalagmometry method (chapter 3.1.2.3.). Starting at page 137 in this book is the stirrup method and at page 140 the bubble method described - including all these nice formulas!  

They use different measurement principles but all four result in a value for the intermolecular forces between the molecules of the liquid, which is expressed as surface tension.

 

Therefore the answer for the Reddit request would be cross references to the older and newer data tables.

 

[LizEF]

6 hours ago, InesF said:

Hi @LizEF, thanks for doing these cross-communication between FPN and Reddit. I see many of your posts there!  

But I didn't see the question about capillary action.

You're welcome!  I wouldn't have seen it had someone not "pinged" me.

 

6 hours ago, InesF said:

Therefore the answer for the Reddit request would be cross references to the older and newer data tables.

For "older and newer data tables", do you mean your own data as found in this thread?  (Or something else within your textbook?)  Just want to make sure I'm understanding.

 

6 hours ago, InesF said:

They use different measurement principles but all four result in a value for the intermolecular forces between the molecules of the liquid, which is expressed as surface tension.

So, just to be sure I'm not missing some nuance...  What I previously said to the person requesting a test of "capillary action", "capillarity", and "capillary rise" (the three ways they phrased it) is that the end result would rank the inks the same as they are in your spreadsheet.  What you say here suggests that's correct, right?

 

(PS: Thanks for playing science instructor! )