Fancy fountain pen for letter writing

[Bo Bo Olson]

More or less yes, and more for other folks who bought modern pens. I bought old cheap ones.....vintage and semi-vintage....and really got spoiled.

For a true F get a gold plated 200 nib.

Look the truth is hardly anyone in the world would know your nib on your 600 is a 200's and those that would notice should know the 200's nib is the superior one.

 

Another problem with the modern fat 400/600 and bigger pens is often the nib will have baby bottom from over polishing; in many wish butter smooth at all costs. Especially on common cheap paper.

 

The 200 is a smooth nib....as are the vintage and semi-vintage they how ever are what I call 'good and smooth', the level just under butter smooth.

Paper makes such a difference to how smooth a nib writes, normal copy paper  'need's  butter smooth more than good to better paper.

Butter smooth slides around on slick paper like Clairfontaine Triumpe, or Rhoda 80/90 g. Where as regular flex and semi-flex don't.

Your 600's nib will be butter smooth, and I hope you don't have baby bottom.........just to get use to the nib, after you have it made CI there will be no baby bottom if you were unlucky.

Many are lucky and don't have baby bottom on the 400 to 1000 pens. The squeaky wheel gets more play here on the com for baby bottom, than those with out.

 

The 800&1000, are larger and have larger mouths, so need a larger nib section than the 200/400/600.

 

Old regular flex school pen 120/ semi-flex 140 will fit also 2/4/600....how ever the 140's nib is smaller so looks a bit dorky in a 400 much less the 600. But will fit. IMO for pure writing the dorky looking 140's nib was better than the 605's. Mine was an OB, which in vintage nibs is a writing nib, not the signature nib; nor is the vintage B nib. Semi-vintage a B like in a 200's nib can ass a bit of pizazz to your writing.

M and B are a bit better IMO than F for shading ink, but if you use good 90g or better paper an F will shade.

 

The 50-65 and 82-97 (and the modern 200's) all have different nib geometry than the modern ones. They are 1/2 or even more some say, narrower than the modern fat and blobby Pelikan nib; which is designed for folks that don't know how or don't have the time to learn how to hold a fountain pen; so hold it habitually like a ball point; vertical, before the big index knuckle; instead of just behind the big index knuckle at 45 degrees, or at the start of the web of the thumb at 40 degrees.....heavy or long pens can rest in the pit of the thumb at 35 degrees. 

A fountain pen should rest, not be forced to hold a certain position.

'50-65 are stubbed semi-flex outside the nail's nail, D nib or the hard H nib.

The 82-97 regular flex nibs have a small American Bump under tipping. Both write with a nice clean line, which is not the case of the modern double ball/double kugel (I misspell that word a lot.) 

The modern '97 and later 400/600 are semi-nails, the 800 a nail. That is so the Ball Point Barbarian don't make pretzels out of the nib as easy if it was regular flex.

The 1000 use to be semi-flex when it was made by Bock, is now a regular flex.

From 1997, Bock made Pelikan nibs to @ 2010. Folks complained bitterly about the Bock made nibs........when Pelikan took nib making back In House........... The exact same complaints continued, in Bock made Pelikan's nibs exactly to the spec's that Pelikan gave them.

Outside my 3-4 new 200's, have 6, my two modern Pelikans a 605, which I had nib swapped from M to BB in I knew someday I'd stub or make it a CI. It is now a 1.0 or B stub made by Fountainble/Francis. (That took quite a while.)The other modern Pelikan I have is a 1005, OBB. So with an OBB or a BB one is not worried about nib thinness.

It does write wider than my old small 400 size W.Germany 600 OBB by half a size. The old 600 was a fancied up version of the 400. Mine has a  two toned 18K/750 nib. Could well be there are 14 K nibs on the old 600 also. I've not looked it up.....having the 18K, have no reason to worry about it.

 

I do suggest getting a B on your 600 in when making it a stub or CI is will be a small tad narrower....a skinny B or you can have your nib grinder make it an M. The B nib allows you either of two widths. I have a Lamy Persona, that was a no line variation nail 18 K/750 nib that Pendelton Brown made into a nice M (or M+) CI.

My Lamy Persona is from 1990, in it don't have the tiny knob on the retractable clip to prevent it from rolling off the desk.

There is a new Lamy Persona, that has a real great regular flex nib....perhaps the best I've ever tied.. It's slightly different, how ever was designed by the same guy back in the day. Gave the pen a very Art Deco look.

It is a heavy pen...........and I'd not recommend buying the black coated or semi-coated nibs in that is not as stable as gold plate as complaints have shown for any black coated nib by anyone. They have nice two toned gold nibs also. 

[BaronWulfraed]

11 hours ago, cynegils said:

Damn it! My wife is already ahowlin' and ahollerin' about silly pens... I'll make sure not to buy a female, but your post implies these may reproduce asexually. 

 

Parthenogenetic...

 

[inkstainedruth]

Or maybe a new species of Tribble? 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[BaronWulfraed]

13 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Or maybe a new species of Tribble? 

 

Only if one discovers a rapid depletion of ink supplies corresponding to the appearance of new members.

[inkstainedruth]

5 hours ago, BaronWulfraed said:

 

Only if one discovers a rapid depletion of ink supplies corresponding to the appearance of new members.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[tartuffo]

On 3/2/2021 at 12:05 PM, cynegils said:

I will be writing fast and .....  Also, based on the responses here, a cursive italic seems the way to go.

 

I haven't read all the posts but you might want to rethink this as  "fast"  and  "cursive italic"  don't really go together. 

[inkstainedruth]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:35 PM, tartuffo said:

 

I haven't read all the posts but you might want to rethink this as  "fast"  and  "cursive italic"  don't really go together. 

I think you're mistaking "italic" (the calligraphy style) with "cursive italic" (a particular grind on nibs and their tipping).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Bo Bo Olson]

Italic is more the slow drawn letters.

I imagine I could do that with my CI, but am too lazy to open the book on my desk. CI writing.. The nib was a 18 K nail OB with absolutely no line variation Pendelton Brown made it a CI, perhaps skinny B or fat M, in you do lose a tinny bit when grinding a nib to italic or Cursive italic.....could well be in stub also. 1990 was before Fat Nibs....so it might look M'ish.

There's no slow to it, with a touch of practice. Pendelton, has a good Hand.....I my self have up graded from 1.0 Chicken Scratch to 2.0 Rooster Scratch.  Yep, there are days when I can read my own handwriting.....my wife has not had one of those days yet; in deciphering my scribble.

 

 

 

1990 Lamy Persona, 1990 in it's missing the tiny dot on the recessed clip to prevent the cap from rolling off the desk that later models had. Very Art Deco styling.

 

[txomsy]

I think there is a confusion between calligraphic and cursive writing. If you want calligraphic italic you will likely be better off doing it slowly, unless you have mastered it till the point you don't need to.

 

But there is such a thing as a fast-writing italic, cursive, which is what it actually means. The term cursive was traditionally reserved for fast writing, and it is common (at least in some environments) to make a paleographic distinction between "cursive writing" and "master hand" to distinguish the fast every-day, every-man, less careful italic (or any other script) variant from the writing done with care and attention for beauty (or calligraphy), which needs neither be done slowly necessarily (not if you are a master calligrapher), which is why it is referred as "master hand". The base script is the same, its beauty not.

 

Or, as Wikipedia puts it :"Cursive (also known as script, among other names) is any style of penmanship in which some characters are written joined together in a flowing manner, generally for the purpose of making writing faster".

 

So, by definition, cursive italic is "italic written fast".

[Bo Bo Olson]

The CI nib itself is not so sharp as italic, so lets one get away with less than perfect nib placement and use.

Do go and look a while at Richard Binder's site, about nib form and scripts.

Once 95% of all I knew came from Richard; A while back before he retired he was one of The Three First Names; Richard, Rick and Ron. There may have been one or two other First Names; a couple Mikes and so on but I was forgetful in my youth so don't worry about now either.

Now it's only 92% in a bit more than a decade here on the com, one should have learned something.

[Karmachanic]

13 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

I think you're mistaking "italic" (the calligraphy style) with "cursive italic" (a particular grind on nibs and their tipping).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Quite so. I've been known to scribble away furiously, on occasion,  with my CI  nibs

[Paganini]

2 hours ago, txomsy said:

So, by definition, cursive italic is "italic written fast".

 

Just so; this is one of the things that brought me to fountain pens in the first place. A lot of handwriting rehabilitation material is based on cursive italic. The Icelandic Method is aimed at teaching it to school-children, while other books (e.g., those by Rosemary Sassoon) are aimed at helping adults develop writing that is handsome and legible even when written fast. (Apparently bad writing causes complications and even deaths in the medical world, when prescriptions are mis-filled. I have a much more pedestrian goal... I just want my writing to look cool.)

 

Anyway, they're all based on 'La Operina,' a 16th century manual for chancery cursive italic by Ludovico Arrighi. There's a VERY COOL book by Paul Standard that includes a facsimile of La Operina, along with Paul Standard's hand-written (in chancery cursive!) explanatory notes. It's out of print, but sometimes used copies show up on Amazon, Abe Books, and the like.  He suggests that just using an edge pen (i.e., an italic ground nib) will do a lot for your writing, even if you don't alter any of the letterforms you're already using. 

[tartuffo]

17 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

think you're mistaking "italic" (the calligraphy style) with "cursive italic" (a particular grind on nibs and their tipping).

 

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

think there is a confusion between calligraphic and cursive writing. If you want calligraphic italic you will likely be better off doing it slowly, unless you have mastered it till the point you don't need to.

 

But there is such a thing as a fast-writing italic, cursive, which is what it actually means.

 

Thank you for the explanations. I guess I still have a ways to go because my cursive italic  (Fairbank/Reynolds style ) is anything

but fast writing italic

[Retro-user]

One must also give due consideration to the type of paper to be used with fancy correspondence. After all, the surface to which you shall apply your missives must be worthy. Names springing to mind encompass G. Lalo Verge de France, Clairefontaine (pronounced, if I’m not mistaken, clayre phone tawn), or Smythson of Bond Street. Baronial ivory, natural white, or various blue hues lend themselves to conveying an appropriate touch of elan for the gentleman’s (or lady’s) correspondence. Paper of the grade of 32# linen is extra toothy, and is so thick as to almost crack when folded. Perhaps 24# would be a more accessible choice. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

4 hours ago, Retrouser said:

Names springing to mind encompass G. Lalo Verge de France, Clairefontaine (pronounced, if I’m not mistaken, clayre phone tawn), or Smythson of Bond Street. Baronial ivory, natural white, or various blue hues lend themselves to conveying an appropriate touch of elan for the gentleman’s (or lady’s) correspondence. Paper of the grade of 32# linen is extra toothy, and is so thick as to almost crack when folded. Perhaps 24# would be a more accessible choice. 

G.Lalo Verge De France is a laid paper, and is rougher than 'normal'. So is Linen Effect. M is good there or B. EF not at all...IMO. I have Verge De France in 160g @ 43+ or so in pounds. In I like heavy paper. I don't have it in it's normal 80-90g.

 

Clairefontaine Triumphe(sp) like Rhoda 80/90g are slick papers.

You do need one or the other. I have both.

Oxford Optic 90g is = to Clairefontaine Velout, which I have in spiral binders. They are good affordable paper.

European postage is so, so much cheaper than US, one can afford the postage. I like M&K papers .... get all three.

 

Thanks for the tip.Smythson of Bond Street.

 

I have US made Southworth papers from the last time I visited the States a decade ago; which in spite of being a Laser-Ink Jet combo, are good papers. I have that in cream, ivory, almond. In at least two versions of Linen Effect paper. And a couple of other shades. From 24 (90g) to 32 (120g) pounds.

 

I strive to get Laser only paper in it is best.................stay far, far away from the Feather Champ Ink Jet paper which is designed for fast absorption, so feathers to the max using fountain pen ink.

 

I like two toned shading ink...............100% or 50% cotton paper swallow shading. 25% is fine. Shading ink sits on top of the paper for that added second or so; so the narrower line is lighter than the wider part of a letter. IMO part of that old fashioned fountain pen script.

Most 'noobies' coming over from BP and Gell pens like bold vibrant (boring) saturated and supersaturated inks.

They call shading inks, wishy-washy or pastel.

I have time, in 2-3 years they will get tired of bright and boring. That leads to Shading Inks, Sheen and of course glitter.

Of course I chase glitter inks that shade.......

 

Writing is 1/3 nib width&flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink and in that order. Add 1/3 user, 4/3rds = 1 on the com. 

 

Paper makes a great difference with ink.

One must go into Ink Reviews and see Sandy1 our passed Ink Guru's reviews. She uses 4-5 normal width pens, and 4-5 different papers.

Over the decade I've been here I've counted 8 or so very good papers she used***. Width of the nib, much less type of paper makes such a big difference; it is often hard to believe it's the very same ink.

 

***& I don't order some....as I keep saying I'm going to.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 3/2/2021 at 6:05 PM, cynegils said:

since I will be writing fast and for long periods of time.

I write fast as you do using a semi-flex....in my Hand is lighter and I don't press hard, nor am I looking for excess line variation all the time....What I get is natural and just happens due to normal writing pressure of how the letter is shaped.

 

I linked you to an automatic light Hand, with no hand fatigue in an up post................takes three minutes to learn how to have a light Hand.

 

But a nail stub would do, giving you some flair. Might be best bet....some flair with out any fuss.

 

If you know exactly where you will be holding that new pen of yours, you can take a picture of your Hold and send the pen to a nibmeister to get a CI ground to your hold be that 45 degrees right after the big index knuckle or 40 degrees at the start of the web of your thumb.

IMO CI does make a difference to your exact hold.It should match.