Vintage Japanese Inks?

[arcfide]

So, there seems to be some resources around that talks about the classic Big 3 American ink makers, Waterman, Sheaffer, and Parker. You can also find some stuff about classic vintage European inks from various makers (some very old and storied). 

 

However, I can't find much information about classic vintage Japanese inks. Are any still in production, in the same way that Quink, Skrip, and Waterman inks are? The best I could find was an allusion from Platinum that their Blue-Black ink has been continuously in production for a long time, and that the "other makers" have ceased production of their traditional ink lines. I'm having trouble finding much information about this. Do Sailor and Pilot still make any of their vintage ink formulae? Is most of their ink line "new" stuff? 

 

I presume that Pilot's Blue Black has been a product for a long time, but the formula was changed a while back to remove any IG, yes? What about Sailor? 

[khalameet]

I can only confirm what you said about Pilots excellent blue black ink: It exists for a very long time now (presumably was first made somewhere around the 50s) and was originally an iron gall ink. The IG formula was changed to a dye ink in the 90s (1994 iirc). Since then the ink seems to have some kind of cellulose reactive component which gives it the semi permanent properties, although being very maintenance friendly.

 

I found a blogpost on this, where a Pilot employee told things like that. They also had several versions of the ink on the post and tested them (IG and non IG). But I can not find it anymore, maybe someone else is more lucky? It was an Italian blog I think

[RJS]

I tried searching for it, but no joy. There was a video where someone was invited to test Pilot Blue Black ink from different decades- 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc to see how it had aged and how they compared. None were spoilt and all wrote perfectly from what I remember. The pre-90s inks (IG inks) all looked near identical, and were much darker than the modern version of the ink.

 

Pilot opened a dedicated factory and launched a discrete ink company in 1950, but they did sell some ink products before this. I'm not sure when Blue-Black first appeared.

[arcfide]

From what I can tell, it looks like the equivalent ink for Platinum is their Blue Black ink, which seems to have a long history, and they are somewhat proud of still using what I gather is close to the original formula (since a user here reports very similar behaviors from this ink across many decades of use and generations, though I forget who). I can't tell whether Pilot or Platinum had their black and red lines for as long. 

 

That leaves Sailor. What were they up to back in the day? They surely weren't working with pigmented inks back then, and I think most of their new line of inks are all part of the modern ink craze, as is Pilot's Iroshizuku line, but what of their standard ink line? I picked up some of their Sailor Blue and I can't help but notice just how similar it is in color tone to Platinum's Blue Black ink before it darkens over a few weeks. It seems unlikely to me that this was mere coincidence. 

 

Did Sailor have a similarly marketed IG ink that they later converted to a dye-based one, such as their Sailor Blue Black dye-based ink? 

 

When did the "blues" come into the picture? That is, things like Pilot's Blue ink/Namiki Blue, and the distinction between Sailor's Blue Black and Blue inks.

 

It is a little frustrating that getting that kind of information is so difficult. 

[arcfide]

I went looking for the article. Do you perhaps mean this one?

 

Crónicas Estilográficas: Vintage Inks (estilofilos.blogspot.com)

 

[arcfide]

If the above article is correct, then it appears that Pilot's Blue Black would indeed qualify as a classic vintage style ink (of course, with the formulation change). What I find interesting is the apparent split in approaches between the Big 3 Japanese makers. 

 

All three of the "big 3" American makers, seem to have stuck with marginally water-resistant, but easy to clean blue black and black formulations. My limited research in that area reveals that Waterman at least appears to have used an IG formulation back in the day. The advertisements on Sheaffer Skrip and Parker Quink both refer to them as permanent and suitable for documents, but I don't see strong evidence that they used to be Iron Gall inks. 

 

Nonetheless, by the time we get to anywhere reasonably modern, it appears that Waterman, Parker, and Sheaffer all standardize on dye-based inks that might have some level of water-resistance, but wouldn't be considered anywhere near waterproof by today's standards of high-end, high-tech inks. Nonetheless, they've universally shifted away from any IG and certainly no pigmented inks.

 

The Germans seem a little more eclectic, with Pelikan retaining their IG, Pigmented, and dye-based offerings in what seems a pretty classic formulation to my research. Lamy seems to have retained their classic dye-based inks, but only really addresses documentary inks with their Benitoite ink which is, a very gentle IG at best. Montblanc phased out their IG blue black and shifted towards a black and blue pigmented line. 

 

But with the Japanese makers, there seems to be a very interesting split. Pilot appears to have kept their classic line, but tweaked the formula to use cellulose reactive inks instead of IG. Platinum seems to have kept their classic line more or less intact, but leaned *in* to the IG element with their Classic line, while at the same time branching out into pigmented offerings. I don't have as much information on Sailor, but it seems like they shifted their standard line away from permanence and leaned in very heavily to the pigmented line, with their Seiboku, Souboku, Kiwaguru, and Storia line of inks, which is a pretty extensive and varied line of pigmented inks. 

 

This gives me the impression that when it comes to "updating the classics", Pilot went cellulose-reactive, Platinum stuck with IG, and Sailor went full-tilt into the pigmented inks. 

 

At any rate, it paints a neat and nice picture in my head, but I don't know enough about Sailor to know their history when it comes to inks and how they worked with them. 

 

And, of course, I am obviously only really considering what I consider the interesting inks for me. Pilot and Sailor have obviously created massive variations on boutique inks that cover a wide range of colors, but I'm thinking more of the classics here. 

 

That means that there's a pretty strong lineage to the vintage lines with Pilot and Platinum, but I am having a hard time tracking the lineage backwards into ink history with Sailor's offerings. 

[RJS]

8 hours ago, arcfide said:

I went looking for the article. Do you perhaps mean this one?

 

Crónicas Estilográficas: Vintage Inks (estilofilos.blogspot.com)

 

Good find!! That's the one. Thanks

[RJS]

It's an interesting topic for me too. I wish I was able to contribute something, but I look forward to hearing what is discovered!

[Olya]

Of the "Western inks", to my knowledge "permanent" has always just meant "might leave stains on your clothes", they were always dye inks. You still have this with e.g. Parker Quink and their washable blue and "permanent blue".

 

The only iron gall inks ever were always labelled "blue black", though I'm not aware whether Parker ever had an IG formula. I remember seeing Waterman and I think Sheaffer IG blue blacks, but am not aware of Quink IG. Parker also must've made an early switch to dye blue black if they ever had an IG. My impression is that Sheaffer and Waterman also switched early to dye blue blacks, whereas German makers stuck with IG right up until the 2010s (Montblanc) and some are still IGs (eg Pelikan 4001 Blue Black, though it is a light formula compared to the past and lighter than Diamine and ESSRI Registrar's, which are close to the past formula, i.e. strong(er); Lamy blbl used to be IG in the bottle, not sure about now).

 

I remember reading comments that Pilot inks are virtually the same as they were in the 1960s, right down to the bottle (30ml), except of course that Pilot blue black is no longer an IG.

 

Pilot was always the biggest player in Japan, so info is a bit easier to find. Sailor was quite small and Platinum I think back in the day more popular than Sailor. I remember reading by a Japanese member here that Sailor was regarded as "lower end" compared to Platinum and especially Pilot, and Sailor products weren't as widely distributed.

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, Olya said:

Pilot was always the biggest player in Japan, so info is a bit easier to find. Sailor was quite small and Platinum I think back in the day more popular than Sailor. I remember reading by a Japanese member here that Sailor was regarded as "lower end" compared to Platinum and especially Pilot, and Sailor products weren't as widely distributed.

 

That's an interesting comment. It would be really interesting to me to find any historical information on that. I wonder why that might have been? 

[Olya]

48 minutes ago, arcfide said:

 

That's an interesting comment. It would be really interesting to me to find any historical information on that. I wonder why that might have been? 

Probably just a classic case of brand preference, availabilty.. That kind of thing. When you look at vintage pens made by the big 3 at the same time periods, they are very similar (e.g. the pocket pens).

Probably the same why and how people viewed Parker vs Sheaffer (vs Waterman).

 

Finding info is very hard though, we've had a brief discussion on that before.

The majority is in Japanese, which many don't speak and unfortunately the companies don't have full records, either. The reason for this is a mix of a) not even trying to keep records (till later) and b) lost archives to accidents/disasters. Some people have a vintage Pilot pen, reach out to Pilot and they can't tell them anything about it....

 

The comment about Sailor being seen as "lowest" by the member may be taken with a grain of salt, like most things in life I suppose. As I remember it, the gist of the story was that they were getting (back) into fountain pens and the parent(s) were astonished that Sailor was now so popular and tried to steer the member more towards Pilot and Platinum. By reading other comments and blog posts my impression is very much that Pilot was almost always the biggest of the big 3.

 

Also take into account that Japan has more fountain pen makers than just the big 3 and like in Europe and North America there used to be many more in the past. Given long-gone companies' existence, the question is then also: Where did Sailor factor in people's perception not only alongside Pilot and Platinum, but also all those other makers?

(Like in Europe + N America: Geha, Wearever, Eversharp...... and countless smaller companies)

 

I credit the Sailor craze of ca. the past decade to the many exclusives and the "exotic" nibs. If the comment(s) I mentioned are true, then Sailor has risen considerably. They are, however, in trouble due to mis-management and have been taken on by Plus, a massive (or one of the massive) stationery conglomerate in Japan.

 

I have also always been interested in vintage things made by the big 3 (pens, inks, marketing materials, market placement/people's opinions, how things have changed..), but finding info (esp. in-depth) is quite challenging (from what I gather, that is the case even for people who speak Japanese, as said above, due to lack of records mostly).

[arcfide]

2 hours ago, Olya said:

Probably just a classic case of brand preference, availabilty.. That kind of thing. When you look at vintage pens made by the big 3 at the same time periods, they are very similar (e.g. the pocket pens).

Probably the same why and how people viewed Parker vs Sheaffer (vs Waterman).

 

Finding info is very hard though, we've had a brief discussion on that before.

The majority is in Japanese, which many don't speak and unfortunately the companies don't have full records, either. The reason for this is a mix of a) not even trying to keep records (till later) and b) lost archives to accidents/disasters. Some people have a vintage Pilot pen, reach out to Pilot and they can't tell them anything about it....

 

The comment about Sailor being seen as "lowest" by the member may be taken with a grain of salt, like most things in life I suppose. As I remember it, the gist of the story was that they were getting (back) into fountain pens and the parent(s) were astonished that Sailor was now so popular and tried to steer the member more towards Pilot and Platinum. By reading other comments and blog posts my impression is very much that Pilot was almost always the biggest of the big 3.

 

Also take into account that Japan has more fountain pen makers than just the big 3 and like in Europe and North America there used to be many more in the past. Given long-gone companies' existence, the question is then also: Where did Sailor factor in people's perception not only alongside Pilot and Platinum, but also all those other makers?

(Like in Europe + N America: Geha, Wearever, Eversharp...... and countless smaller companies)

 

I credit the Sailor craze of ca. the past decade to the many exclusives and the "exotic" nibs. If the comment(s) I mentioned are true, then Sailor has risen considerably. They are, however, in trouble due to mis-management and have been taken on by Plus, a massive (or one of the massive) stationery conglomerate in Japan.

 

I have also always been interested in vintage things made by the big 3 (pens, inks, marketing materials, market placement/people's opinions, how things have changed..), but finding info (esp. in-depth) is quite challenging (from what I gather, that is the case even for people who speak Japanese, as said above, due to lack of records mostly).

 

Very interesting! Thanks for expanding the story a bit. Like you, I love to see the history of these things. I also find the story of Sailor interesting in light of the financial situation. Some blog posts and many general impressions over the past decade have put Platinum as a distinctly "budget" option in many ways compared to Pilot and Sailor, while Sailor often gets a lot of craze and praise, yes, largely due to their nibs. However, despite this apparent love, Sailor, which previously appeared to have been rather successful, even if smaller than the other two, seems to have recently begun struggling financially, despite what appears to be an uptick in public opinion (at least among the English speaking blogs). You also see Sailor doing a lot more collaborations and small batch products with specific vendors in Japan. 

 

The only reference to vintage inks that I can find on Sailor is in their own history literature which shows a single page of an older catalogue of theirs from 1932 or thereabouts. It has a single paragraph on ink and shows a set of bottles, with pricing and sizes. 

 

I do get the impression that all three of the big 3 were in the past, playing copy-cat and catch up with the European and American vendors of the time. They all seem to have come out with pens that copied or mimicked many of the Western versions, including for ink. But now it seems that the big 3 are some of the most prolific makers of ink compared to most of the fountain pen makers of the West, especially with regards to the traditional American outfits. I haven't done the research yet to find out whether the Germans or the Japanese were the first to get into the "broad ink lineup" model first. 

[arcfide]

Here's the sole reference I can find on vintage inks from https://sailor.co.jp/topics/step/:

 

 

And zooming in on the explanation:

 

 

This translates, as best as I can tell using Google Translate, to: It is forbidden to mix various inks with a fountain pen and use it. By always using sailor ink for sailor fountain pens, we will be able to improve your money.

[khalameet]

Thank you so much for this interesting topic and the valuable information which has been gathered here so far.

 

I am a big fan of these Japanese ink and pen makers, although I sadly don't own anything from Sailor so far. I have a few Platinum and Pilot pens and really enjoy their inks. Both manufacturer's blue black inks are superb.

 

I would especially like to know more about the cellulose reactive topic and am also hoping that Pilot makes pigment inks someday in the future.

 

I enjoy Platinum's iron gall inks. Pigment inks are very interesting to me because I like permanent inks. Had a sample of Carbon Black which I really liked, maybe I should try Sailor's offerings too. But for some reason I think I would need a Sailor pen for that, somehow it seems wrong to me to put Sailor ink in a Platinum pen, or Platinum ink in a Pilot pen...I match these brands always. I know that is probably unnecessary, but I always feel that Pilot's pens work best with their own inks.

[Olya]

15 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Very interesting! Thanks for expanding the story a bit. Like you, I love to see the history of these things. I also find the story of Sailor interesting in light of the financial situation. Some blog posts and many general impressions over the past decade have put Platinum as a distinctly "budget" option in many ways compared to Pilot and Sailor, while Sailor often gets a lot of craze and praise, yes, largely due to their nibs. However, despite this apparent love, Sailor, which previously appeared to have been rather successful, even if smaller than the other two, seems to have recently begun struggling financially, despite what appears to be an uptick in public opinion (at least among the English speaking blogs). You also see Sailor doing a lot more collaborations and small batch products with specific vendors in Japan. 

 

The only reference to vintage inks that I can find on Sailor is in their own history literature which shows a single page of an older catalogue of theirs from 1932 or thereabouts. It has a single paragraph on ink and shows a set of bottles, with pricing and sizes. 

 

I do get the impression that all three of the big 3 were in the past, playing copy-cat and catch up with the European and American vendors of the time. They all seem to have come out with pens that copied or mimicked many of the Western versions, including for ink. But now it seems that the big 3 are some of the most prolific makers of ink compared to most of the fountain pen makers of the West, especially with regards to the traditional American outfits. I haven't done the research yet to find out whether the Germans or the Japanese were the first to get into the "broad ink lineup" model first. 

 A big fat "yes!" to your last paragraph!

I think the most copied was Parker, Platinum e.g. even had an arrow clip on their hooded pen! (The other 2 likely as well, but I remember distinctively seeing an old Platinum ad with a pen that looked very very much like a Parker 51 right down to the clip, but then Western brands copied the clip as well!)

 

They have carried their competitiveness into today's age, they put out similar pens, price them the same, raise the prices at the same time etc etc.

 

Broadly speaking, in the West companies try to be unique and put their mark on a product and in Japan it's kinda more homogenous (and frankly I don't mind, classic looking "boring" pens are my favourite kind! They're a staple, the glittery colourful SEs and LEs are the cherry on top)

 

Thanks for uploading the old ad, very interesting!

Seems ink mixing was even then a thing!?

The ad reminds me, I think back then they had the custom of buying nibs only and then putting that in a pen of choice, I think that was in the West common as well. Obviously, that changed...