Does Anyone Use Red Ink Anymore?

[Manalto]

Last semester, I had a student smarter than all of us put together. She wrote her papers in red ink, forcing me to make my corrections, suggestions, and comments in blue.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Manalto

[silverlifter]

Last semester, I had a student smarter than all of us put together. She wrote her papers in red ink, forcing me to make my corrections, suggestions, and comments in blue.

 

Checkmate!

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

I absolutely agree with this but, I also agree that there's an art in giving criticisms. It's extremely important to separate the business from character and not make it personal. Business and is business and is serious, however it's never OK to insult someone personally while doing giving criticism. The strongest criticism I got is from someone who's very soft spoken. You get your criticism, understand what's wrong and correct it. Nothing personal is get involved.

 

There's something powerful in being calm and, most people fail to understand this as far as I see.

Agreed. As i stated in my 3rd point, you don't HAVE to be cruel when giving criticism. On the flip side, teaching kids how to handle people with... shall we say less than perfect people skills, is a life skill they NEED to learn.

 

As long as blood, violence, STOP signs, negative numbers in accounting books and anything and everything negative is denoted by red in our world, this is very unlikely. It's about the meaning of red in this universe. If you change all red things including blood to vert reseda, your hypothesis might hold true.

 

Also "feeling bad" is not being "triggered". There's a very thin slight yet extremely important difference.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one partially. As stated in my original post, when I got in trouble for using red ink it was because someone felt "like they were being corrected by a teacher". That was not due to stop signs, or red lights, but due to that person's inability to seperate red INK from some teacher who obviously did not give corrections in an appropriate fashion

 

That's also correct. However please see both previous point and my previous post with my emphasis.

 

I think it's very hard to separate the criticism from the anger which, generally comes bundled with it. However anger doesn't improve criticism, but blurs it.

Again, learning to separate criticism from anger is a Life SKILL kids should be taught.

Expecting the WORLD to change in order to protect someones feelings rather than simply teaching people from a young age to DEAL with those events is the hight of hubris, narcissism and egoism.

You CANNOT expect the world to change to please YOU. You cannot control what other people do and how they act. So the only logical option is to learn how to deal with those people.

Not everyone is going to grow up to be an astronaut. Not everyone is going to succeed as well as their neighbour, and teaching kids that they WILL and can apparently EXPECT to is what has lead to what is often refered to as the "millennial entitlement".

These are people who for their whole lives were told they were special, and they would be amazing, and the whole world was theirs to have.

Unfortunatley, what was left out was:

- They ARE special, just like EVERYONE else.

- They COULD be amazing, and the world CAN be theirs, BUT, they have to

1) BE VERY LUCKY (or born rich) and

2) Work their butts off.

 

Not everyone gets to win the race. Only ONE gets to WIN. And as the saying goes, second place, is the first loser.

Participation medals are an example of failing to teach kids this.

When I was a kid (in the 80s) if you LOST, you were taught (usually, depending on your parents of course) how to accept that loss, and what to do to try and win NEXT time. Not to cry about it and demand a medal anyway!

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Last semester, I had a student smarter than all of us put together. She wrote her papers in red ink, forcing me to make my corrections, suggestions, and comments in blue.

This is hilarious. But was it done to FORCE you to use blue ink? (you could have used green ! ) or was it simply because she liked red ink?

 

In the 90s, there was no way we would have been allowed to turn anything in written in red ink. Not that I can think of anyway.

[Astronymus]

Same here. Red was forbidden and would not be accepted. It still isn't.

[Manalto]

This is hilarious. But was it done to FORCE you to use blue ink? (you could have used green ! ) or was it simply because she liked red ink?

 

In the 90s, there was no way we would have been allowed to turn anything in written in red ink. Not that I can think of anyway.

My point was that I was forced to use something other than red ink. Despite my reputation here as a heartless tyrant savoring each moment of schadenfreude, I tend to be pretty easy-going, rejoicing even, in my students' participation, so I don't let a little thing like their choice of ink color bug me. I'm rewarded a thousand fold by people who open up and share their humor and humanity.

[Astronymus]

So, basicly you are not teaching them discipline.

[Helen350]

This is hilarious. But was it done to FORCE you to use blue ink? (you could have used green ! ) or was it simply because she liked red ink?

 

In the 90s, there was no way we would have been allowed to turn anything in written in red ink. Not that I can think of anyway.

 

In my day 50-60s, red was reserved for the teacher to mark our papers. I had a dread of what grade

would come to me marked in RED!! In my day learning to write cursive, and with a fountain pen, was

the rule of the day. There were only two inks available for us--black & blue.

[Manalto]

So, basicly you are not teaching them discipline.

Yeah, I'm a real jerk.

 

I have a student who sent me photos of handwritten papers in an environment where digital documents are only accepted. I gently suggested that other instructors won't accept papers this way and that she should find a way to submit her work digitally. This student was only able to write her papers on computer in the school library, and then coronavirus shut the school down. I figured I would cut her some slack because, in spite of the fact that she was working two jobs her work was always handed in on time.

[Astronymus]

That's another story. And a problem only you can solve. Use your rights to vote. That's all I'll say without getting political.

[LizEF]

....

Expecting the WORLD to change in order to protect someones feelings rather than simply teaching people from a young age to DEAL with those events is the hight height of hubris, narcissism and egoism.

....

Not everyone is going to grow up to be an astronaut. Not everyone is going to succeed as well as their neighbour, and teaching kids that they WILL and can apparently EXPECT to is what has lead to what is often refered referred to as the "millennial entitlement".

....

Unfortunatley Unfortunately, what was left out was:

...

Thought you might like to see some red...

[Ebberman]

Expecting the WORLD to change

That reminds me of an old saying:

Reasonable people accept the world and culture into which they were born, and mould themselves to fit in

Unreasonable people do not accept the world and culture into which they were born, and work tirelessly to change it to suit them.

Therefore all change is brought about by unreasonable people.

[Helen350]

Thought you might like to see some red...

 

This brought back memories of Ms. Bass, my Grammar teacher. I'm thinking of her fountain pen filled with red ink

grading my paper.

[bayindirh]

Expecting the WORLD to change

That reminds me of an old saying:

Reasonable people accept the world and culture into which they were born, and mould themselves to fit in

Unreasonable people do not accept the world and culture into which they were born, and work tirelessly to change it to suit them.

Therefore all change is brought about by unreasonable people.

 

I'll craft a longer answer when I have more time, but I feel that I need to just say it when the time is right.

 

It's not about expecting the world to change and behave according to my expectations however, this goes both ways. Similarly other people cannot expect from me to accept their norms as-is without any criticism or thinking it through, because world doesn't evolve around them either. Also, just because something is the norm today, there's no guarantee that it'll be the norm tomorrow.

 

As a result intellectual skirmishes happen in our society all the time and, it's healthy.

What I want to defend and convey here is completely different:

 

While I'm not an instructor, I work in academia and interact a lot with researchers and students alike. What I like to do is to lead by example. I try to show them the correct way of doing things from my perspective but, warn them that they're in a protected environment and there's an imperfect world out there. Metaphorically, I try to give them a booklet containing the best practices, pitfalls and dangers. It's up to them to utilize that booklet. Also they can ask for guidance when they don't understand something. Also, it's worth noting that I'm practicing Zen and I'm an instructor.

 

If we want a better society, higher civility and intellect, perpetuating older ways (just because the world works like that today) is wrong. It doesn't prepare anyone to anything but, only teaches them to behave like that in real world. That can be dangerous. I try to plant the seeds of a better future into people I interact and warn them the dangers ahead in the best way I can. They can water it and allow it to sprout or leave the seeds to die. It's their choice. I accept them regardless. It's the same for the conversation here. I'm not here to change anyone but, to create some intellectual sparks and make people think.

 

Also, there seems to be a big dose prejudice in some answers however, it's a delicate issue and I'd like to give some thought about it before talking about it.

Edited June 28, 2020 by bayindirh

[LizEF]

 

This brought back memories of Ms. Bass, my Grammar teacher. I'm thinking of her fountain pen filled with red ink

grading my paper.

It was a joke because of the similar corrections in the post @IThinkIHaveAProblem quoted. I'm guessing that @IThinkIHaveAProblem will get the joke and find it mildly amusing. (At least I didn't correct "neighbour".)

[WaskiSquirrel]

I figure if the color is an obstacle for whatever reason, that's an easy change to make. Besides, it's more fun to use different colors. It's what I write on student papers rather than the color that matters.

 

And, in looking at my inks, I have a bottle of Noodler's Rattler Eel Red for its stain removal properties, a bottle of some kind of Iroshizuku that is supposed to be like fall leaves. And that's it for bright reds. Apparently I don't like them for personal use.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Yeah, I'm a real jerk.

 

I have a student who sent me photos of handwritten papers in an environment where digital documents are only accepted. I gently suggested that other instructors won't accept papers this way and that she should find a way to submit her work digitally. This student was only able to write her papers on computer in the school library, and then coronavirus shut the school down. I figured I would cut her some slack because, in spite of the fact that she was working two jobs her work was always handed in on time.

Ya know, technically, a digital photo is a "digital document" and you did not specify that they be TYPED, just digital.

 

Story time: My dad's class in high school got in trouble one day and as punishment they were told to turn in "10 copies of page X from the dictionary, EACH, tomorrow". ... After the teacher left the class my dad collected 50cents from everyone in the class. The next day the teacher arrived to a stack of photocopies of the page in question on his desk. 10 photocopies per student. He, being a good guy, laughed, and said the next time he would specify, "individually, handwritten, copies" . There was no "next time"

 

Thought you might like to see some red...

no one LIKES seeing red ink. It's just part of life, I've seen my fair (well earned) share. That's why spell check underlines things IN RED. Too bad sometimes it fails to warn me that my typing is less than perfect...

 

 

I'll craft a longer answer when I have more time, but I feel that I need to just say it when the time is right.

 

It's not about expecting the world to change and behave according to my expectations however, this goes both ways. Similarly other people cannot expect from me to accept their norms as-is without any criticism or thinking it through, because world doesn't evolve around them either. Also, just because something is the norm today, there's no guarantee that it'll be the norm tomorrow.

 

As a result intellectual skirmishes happen in our society all the time and, it's healthy.

What I want to defend and convey here is completely different:

 

While I'm not an instructor, I work in academia and interact a lot with researchers and students alike. What I like to do is to lead by example. I try to show them the correct way of doing things from my perspective but, warn them that they're in a protected environment and there's an imperfect world out there. Metaphorically, I try to give them a booklet containing the best practices, pitfalls and dangers. It's up to them to utilize that booklet. Also they can ask for guidance when they don't understand something. Also, it's worth noting that I'm practicing Zen and I'm an instructor.

 

If we want a better society, higher civility and intellect, perpetuating older ways (just because the world works like that today) is wrong. It doesn't prepare anyone to anything but, only teaches them to behave like that in real world. That can be dangerous. I try to plant the seeds of a better future into people I interact and warn them the dangers ahead in the best way I can. They can water it and allow it to sprout or leave the seeds to die. It's their choice. I accept them regardless. It's the same for the conversation here. I'm not here to change anyone but, to create some intellectual sparks and make people think.

 

Also, there seems to be a big dose prejudice in some answers however, it's a delicate issue and I'd like to give some thought about it before talking about it.

You are correct, the world doesn't revolve around you, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't like how someone treats you, you are free to talk to them about it, ignore it, distance yourself completely, etc. But as long as what they are doing is not illegal, you cannot force anyone to act in a particular way. You can ASK them to, but if they choose not to then we're back to you have to deal with it. How you deal with it is up to you. I come from a world where I didn't get to chose my boss, my coworkers or my subordinates and to some extent, my day to day job! And "just quitting and going elsewhere" was MUCH easier said than done. So I have lots of experience with dealing with people I don't like.

 

I completely agree with the Lead By Example method it is the ONLY way to lead as far as I'm concerned. It's one of the key differences between a Leader, and a Manager.

 

And I DESPISE the answer "well that's how we've always done it" almost as much as I despise change for change's sake.

I am completely on board with "if there is a BETTER way, we should do it that way".

 

In fact I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I take exception to is the "they are in a protected environment". Warning them is fine, it is in fact essential! They NEED to know that how academia works is NOT the real world! But what would be MORE useful (IMO) would be to render the environment NOT protected. The longer people are "coddled" and catered to, the harder it will be for them when they reach the real world and have a boss to deal with who may or may not care about their feelings, only about their productivity.These bosses of course are ignoring that worker satisfaction is directly connected to productivity. I'm not against better ways of doing things, but I just won't cater to stuff like "well, red hurts my feelings, so change how you do things to suit what I want".

That logic ignores three other groups of students:

1) the group who don't CARE what colour is used

2) the group who will have bad feelings about whatever colour is used in its place

3) the group who NEED it to be in red, either because it stands out, or signals something in their mind, or are colour blind and can't properly see whatever colour you use in its place!

 

At this point we are probably catering to a small minority, who make a lot of noise.

 

You can't reasonably make everyone happy. No matter what colour you use, SOMEONE will find a reason to hate it. Given that there is a long standing tradition of red for corrections, and there appears to be no BETTER way of doing it, at least IMO, I don't see the point in changing. IMO it accomplishes only negative things:

1) Students learn if they whine enough about their feelings, they can get their way.

2) It does not prepare them for the day the BOSS doesn't give two figs about their feelings. And that will be a rough day indeed.

 

I understand the logic behind "just change to accommodate them" the problem is accommodation isn't always in their best interest. Sometimes the people in charge are in charge because they actually earned that position, and they actually know better. Their job is then to pass that knowledge onto others. Not to cater to a small minority's feelings.

 

EDIT: I have been an instructor, and I have been a supervisor in positions where what was being taught, or done was possibly a matter of life or death, if not at that particular moment, then down the road. So I do have some experience.

 

And you're right, you don't have to yell at people. The most DEVASTATING correction I've EVER seen given had only three words. They weren't even addressed to me, and I still felt sick to my stomach

 

Said in a quiet, soft voice:

 

"I'm very disappointed"

 

It was a joke because of the similar corrections in the post @IThinkIHaveAProblem quoted. I'm guessing that @IThinkIHaveAProblem will get the joke and find it mildly amusing. (At least I didn't correct "neighbour".)

I did not make those corrections, they were from the original poster

and Neighbour is spelled correctly, as is colour and armour. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/neighbour

only one country in the english speaking world spells those words without a U...

Edited June 28, 2020 by IThinkIHaveAProblem

[LizEF]

I did not make those corrections, they were from the original poster

and Neighbour is spelled correctly, as is colour and armour. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/neighbour

only one country in the english speaking world spells those words without a U...

I discovered that (you didn't make the corrections) after the fact - my bad.

 

Yes, I know neighbour was correct (on your side of the line). I wonder what a US secondary school teacher would do if a US student used the non-US spelling. And I wonder how many US students have had fun testing that out.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

I discovered that (you didn't make the corrections) after the fact - my bad.

 

Yes, I know neighbour was correct (on your side of the line). I wonder what a US secondary school teacher would do if a US student used the non-US spelling. And I wonder how many US students have had fun testing that out.

On your side of the line, I assume the student would be marked wrong. And I would have to agree. The norm down there (or up there for Alaskans...) is to omit the U. And the reasoning behind it is sound. An attempt at making English MAKE SENSE.

https://www.boredpanda.com/funny-english-language-jokes/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

 

Canada btw, is a weird mix of the two (Brit vs American), because we have PLOW, not plough as one example. But there are many more just in that one video!

[TSherbs]

Again, the color doesn't matter much. But the relationship does. To the degree that a teacher uses red to inflict pain or toughen up a kid, that teacher is an (bleep), and that relationship is toxic and unprofessional. To the degree that a teacher has the development of the whole child in mind and is building a relationship of trust, that teacher is a proper professional. Some of the attitudes expressed here I would not hire as a teacher of young people, no matter how smart he/she is (and I have been a principal and chairperson and have had to do a lot of hiring.) Words like "coddling" or "pandering" are not what professional care for student attitude and trust means.