Iron Gall Inks?

[silverlifter]

 

Well, if you want to use plain (or better yet distilled water) that's fine. But if you use the "standard' ammonia solution or a commercial flush (which will likely have ammonia in it -- and very possibly have alcohol, which may be very bad for some kinds of plastics), don't come crying to me afterwards.

And remember -- the "standard" flush is a 9:1 solution of water to ammonia (or, in the case of IG inks, water to white vinegar) which is going to be fairly weak -- because commercial ammonia that you'e buy in the local grocery store, is fairly weak to begin with. But you should absolutely NOT use ammonia solution as a first pass with an IG ink because of the issue with combining an acid (the ink) and a base (the ammonia). I don't need to have a PhD in chemistry to know that (I remember that from HIGH SCHOOL -- and I'd tell you how many years ago that was except that it's not polite to ask a lady her age...). And if you don't believe me, go search for the thread someone started a few years ago trying to make the "ideal" blue black ink and mixing Noodler's Black (which I believe is supposed to be pretty neutral pH) with Noodler's Bay State Blue (which is supposed to be pretty high pH) And the results? They were NOT pretty (and which is why even Nathan Tardif says the Bay State series inks should NOT be mixed with anything except themselves...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

My point was that none of it is necessary. Not the ammonia, the distilled water, or the repeated flushing.

 

The fact that you choose to do it is cool; that's how you like to roll. But telling people they "should" do it when using iron galls is simply untrue. Flushing once every couple of months with tap water will work. Or between a change of inks. People seem to forget that these inks were designed to live in pens; they aren't some volatile substance that requires a hazmat suit...

[inkstainedruth]

Well, silverlifter, I'm not going to just use tap water. I have very hard water where I live and I do NOT want the mineral deposits clogging up a feed the way they aggregate around my faucets. If you live somewhere that DOESN'T have hard water, bully for you. But I do, so I use distilled water.

And you keep (possibly intentionally?) misreading what I have said (and I'm getting a little tired of it ). I said "DO NOT use ammonia -- at least not to start with -- when flushing iron gall inks out of a pen!" And that means diluted or otherwise....

For the rest? YMMV -- but wiser and more experienced people on here talked about using ammonia to flush pens when I started out 8 years ago. After all -- ammonia is used as a CLEANER. Or maybe you don't wash the windows or countertops in your house...?

If you're going to be using the same ink in a pen all the time, the occasional flushing with water is fine. After all -- I'm the one who ran Waterman Mysterious Blue in a vintage Parker Vacumatic for over 3 years without flushing it ONCE -- just refilled the pen when it went dry. But a lot of times I change out pens and/or inks. So I want them pretty clean so as to NOT have interactions between the different inks, or when I'm taking a specific pen out of rotation for a while in favor of something I haven't used for a while. And after having seen that thread that I previously mentioned -- with the bad interaction between inks OF THE SAME BRAND (just different lines) I choose to take more precautions than you apparently do....

And remember another thing -- back in the days of "one person, one pen" it was a LOT easier to find someone to do repairs because there was probably a pen shop in your town, or at least the neighboring slightly larger one. And you probably don't (and I CERTAINLY don't) know how often pens had to be repaired, even then). I DO know that my parents grew up during the Depression. I don't know what sort of pens my dad used, because he never talked about stuff like that -- but my mother could not understand the fascination with my grandfather's pen/pencil combo, because SHE remembered fountain pens being a major PITA -- fussy and leaky and hard to clean. And I suspect that since they didn't have a lot of money (her father was a foreman in a coal mine in West Virginia) she probably only was familiar with third tier brands like Wearever or Recall.... So they WOULD have been scratchy and leaky and generally a PITA.

And now I'm going to have to ask you to actually READ what I've said in all my prior posts in this thread. And I mean "read for content" (something else I learned in high school) because I'm getting tired of you putting words in my mouth.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[silverlifter]

you should flush them with diluted vinegar solution instead of (or at least before) flushing with ammonia solution, so you don't have bad pH interactions -- flushing before, between, and afterwards with distilled water. And you should flush more often than you might normally

 

 

And now I'm going to have to ask you to actually READ what I've said in all my prior posts in this thread. And I mean "read for content" (something else I learned in high school) because I'm getting tired of you putting words in my mouth.

 

 

I have helpfully highlighted the parts of your original post that I have objected to. Just so you can stop accusing me of putting words in your mouth.

 

If you can find anything in my posts where I have misrepresented you, then please draw my attention to it. If I have done so, I will apologise. As I will expect you to if you can not.

[TSherbs]

God sake. You're both not reading each other accurately. You actually both agree. Lol.

[peroride]

Indeed, thank you for all the tips with various methods of pen flushing preparations

 

Let's all enjoy iron gall inks!

[silverlifter]

God sake. You're both not reading each other accurately. You actually both agree. Lol.

 

Not at all. My point is quite simple, and I am surprised that it is misinterpreted: I disagree with all Ruth's "should" statements.

[sebastel23]

i look at it like this: my pen. my money. my risk.

thanks to everyone contributing their experiences!

 

adding mine: a cheap IG i once bought in shanghai (can't recall the brand, sorry, but it was NOT hero) made the gold plating on one of my pelikan M200 nibs come off.

none of the other IG inks i used (hero, pelikan, R&K) did something similar.

Edited March 9, 2020 by sebastel23

[timotheap]

You've all made me want to try iron gall inks... but they seem more expensive so it will have to wait. Nice thread though, I found the few times I read about ig it looked almost dangerous!

[A Smug Dill]

You've all made me want to try iron gall inks... but they seem more expensive so it will have to wait.

Rohrer & Klingner Salix and Scabiosa are relatively cheap inks, especially in Europe. Pelikan 4001 Blue/Black is, too.

[timotheap]

Oh !!! indeed !! thank you!

[Bristol24]

As a user of iron gall inks (mostly Hero 232, R&K Salix/Scabiosa, and KWZ Blue #1), I found this thread interesting and even participated earlier with comments about Hero 232. I note with interest that very early on (the second post, actually), before the nit-picking about the use of the word, "should" overshadowed what was otherwise an interesting bit of information, "silverlifter" gave us a link to "an excellent article" about iron gall inks at Wikipedia. I clicked on the link and read the article in full. Here is a direct quote from the article referenced by "silverlifter:"

 

"Manufacturers or retailers of modern iron gall inks intended for fountain pens sometimes advise a more thorough than usual cleaning regimen which requires the ink to be flushed out regularly with water to avoid clogging or corrosion on delicate pen parts. For more thoroughly cleaning iron gall ink out of a fountain pen, sequential flushes of the pen with water, diluted vinegar or citric acid (to flush out residual iron gall compounds), water, diluted ammonia (if needed to flush out residual colour dye stains), then finally water are often recommended."

 

So sometimes manufacturers "advise a more thorough...cleaning regimen...which requires..." etc. I believe an intellectually honest person would have no difficulty reading into this that someone who cares about their pens and uses iron gall ink probably should do as the manufactures, retailers, and inkstainedruth suggest.

 

With all due respect, I found the nit picking over the use of the word "should" to be burdensome and begging the question: "Why?" Why the obcession with the word, "should?" Why criticize an obviously correct bit of advice, especially when the advice was in keeping with an article recommended by the critic? I can hear it now: "But you don't understand. The word, "should" is too emphatic! Now, if she had insertered the word, "probably" before the word "should," that would be different."

[silverlifter]

With all due respect, I found the nit picking over the use of the word "should" to be burdensome and begging the question: "Why?" Why the obcession with the word, "should?" Why criticize an obviously correct bit of advice, especially when the advice was in keeping with an article recommended by the critic? I can hear it now: "But you don't understand. The word, "should" is too emphatic! Now, if she had insertered the word, "probably" before the word "should," that would be different."

 

For the simple reason that there is tendency for people to over emphasize the fact that iron galls are somehow "difficult" or "dangerous" and demand special or intensive cleaning regimes. This is (bleep). Iron galls have been in pens for a lot longer than this relatively recent fetish for obsessive cleaning/disassembly.

 

Perpetuating that myth is actively harmful as it marginalises a class of ink that is incredibly useful and indeed preferred by some users. Teaching newcomers that it is going to damage their pens, or that it requires arduous cleaning routines is only likely to decrease demand over time and then what?

 

I would also have thought that a community of interest like this would have been keen to avoid perpetuating myths, not encouraging them.

 

As to the unfounded accusation of intellectual dishonesty, I'll ignore in light of any evidence. And the cowardly way it was presented.

[dhanks]

Wow. Is there an adults table?

 

Rumpole

[Bristol24]

You have inferred that my reference to intellectual honesty was pointed at you. Actually it was pointed to the reader in general as in the saying, "Let's be honest here." The article to which you linked on your first post on this thread actually points out that iron gal inks, according to some manufacturers and retailers, does require a more arduous cleaning regimen. Noted fountain pen authorities (generally accepted gurus with the credentials to back them up) also make the recommendation to be more fastidious in the cleaning and flushing so as to avoid the accumulation of solids which can happen with iron gal inks. We've all seen the warnings (I believe even from KWZ) that if solids appear in a bottle of iron gall ink, dispose of the bottle. Again, common sense would dictate that if solids can form in a bottle of iron gal ink, they can also form inside the fountain pen. This is why KWZ suggests using ground vitamin C tablets and water to create a acid wash for cleaning of pens (not unlike Ruth's suggestion of using vinegar).

 

All of that being said, I agree with you that iron gal inks get a bad wrap, so to speak, and some highly saturated boutique inks (which can sometimes do serious damage) get a pass. My absolute most favorite iron gal ink is hardly available any longer... unless one is willing to go through logistical detours in order to get it transported here from China. As iron gall inks go, Hero 232 Blue Black is such a fine example of a remarkably well-behaved ink. It is one of the few inks I can have in one of my Parker 51s and know that on 95% of the paper I will meet out there "in the wild," (cheap napkins excepted) it will write nicely and not bleed through. This cannot be said of most conventional, modern day fountain pen inks.

 

As to the remark about being cowardly, I would say that my comments in the last paragraph of my previous post did what I wanted them to do which was to take your arguments about the word, "should" and mock them for the sake of illustration. For that, Silverlifter, I truly apologize because it was insensitive on purpose and that is distasteful to me. Someone earlier commented that you and inkstainedruth needed to read each other more carefully. Rather, I would say that we should all be sensitive about what we write, especially when it involves the parsing of words for the purpose of being right...even if maybe looking back on it and reading it a second or third time, the argument begins to look silly. But, again, I apologize. In my life I have been known more for being bold and assertive so being cowardly might help to offset my natural tendency.

 

On a more friendly note, I could not help but notice that your flag is the Pitcairn Islands. Wow! If that is where you live then you should know that my hope is to one day sail in those latitudes...not for purpose of sailing by and continuing this discussion in person...but to simply say that I've been there and got there on my own boat.

 

Best regards,

 

Cliff

[A Smug Dill]

Perpetuating that myth is actively harmful as it marginalises a class of ink that is incredibly useful and indeed preferred by some users. Teaching newcomers that it is going to damage their pens, or that it requires arduous cleaning routines is only likely to decrease demand over time and then what?

 

I would also have thought that a community of interest like this would have been keen to avoid perpetuating myths, not encouraging them.

 

Are we now talking about having an objective of influencing or manipulating market demand? Not that there's anything wrong with doing so; but that comes to down marketing — and I don't mean narrowly by those with a business or commercial interest in seeing the demand for a product go up — and I'm against trying to stop others from making moves in the marketing "game" that are either intended to or inadvertently reduce demand of any product (including those I like, as well as those I don't like).

 

For the avoidance of doubt:

 

By all means, you can attempt to neutralise the impact of other players' statements and claims, including but not limited to discrediting those players and/or the information they put out. However, I don't believe in "censorship", or peers preventing others from actively pursuing their agenda by (figuratively speaking) tying their hands behind their backs, even if their agenda is in direct conflict with one's own.

 

I like iron-gall inks. I don't handle my fountain pens with kid gloves, I don't worry about their longevity, and I have little concern for how well other users would like preserve their pens. However...

 

Is exposure to iron-gall inks more likely to damage fountain pen components, through the course of regular writing use, than exposure to a pH-neutral dye-based ink? The honest, objective answer is yes. Whether it's one in every five, or one in every million, nibs that would be damaged by the acid in iron-gall ink, the risk exists. You can quantify (and thus downplay) the actual marginal risk of such if you're keen; I'm not. All I will say is that the risk does not stop me from using various iron-gall inks in my pricier pens.

 

Is flushing a pen, that was last filled with iron-gall ink, using an alkaline solution likely to give rise to an acid-base chemical reaction, which could generate heat and cause precipitation? Again, the honest, objective answer is yes. Given commercial pen flushes are typically alkaline, and so is (however diluted) household ammonia which is often recommended for use in cleaning pens, if any user is already inclined to use more than just plain water for flushing and cleaning pens, then recommendation of a water–acidic solution–water–alkaline cleaning solution–water sequence is sound. As an iron-gall ink user, I personally don't bother with that, but I don't want to discourage others from doing so, or discourage others from making such a recommendation.

 

I have no interest in "selling" how safe iron-gall inks are. I've given away samples of them in the past, and I could probably be talked into giving more samples away in the future, so that others can try them and decide for themselves how safe those inks really are. That's my contribution to driving up market demand in some small way. Whether the recipient wants to put them into a $900 pen, a $9 pen, soak a spare nib and/or piece of vintage celluloid in the sample vial for six weeks, or put a drop of it on raw flesh and test how much it hurts, is entirely up to him or her. Of course, I'd prefer that the recipient actually like the inks, instead of pouring it down the drain or throwing out the whole vial while still sealed.

[BDarchitect]

If everyone puts down their guns and backs away from the OK Corral, no one will get hurt.

[Bristol24]

If everyone puts down their guns and backs away from the OK Corral, no one will get hurt.

Wow! We just watched the 1994 Keven Costner movie, "Wyatt Earp" last evening! Agreed...I'm done. I've apologized and checked my guns at the Long Branch Saloon. I think I'll go sailing... Silverlifter: Truce?

 

Cliff

[BDarchitect]

How social media works- one minute video worth watching:

https://www.facebook.com/blackmon.tony/videos/2523668307692951/

Edited March 10, 2020 by BDarchitect

[Bristol24]

How social media works- one minute video worth watching:

https://www.facebook.com/blackmon.tony/videos/2523668307692951/

I loved it! Very true.

[silverlifter]

Silverlifter: Truce?

 

 

Accepted.

 

I'll refrain from badgering people about this in future. And I do apologise if I have upset anyone, that was not my intention.