Copying Pen Designs

[Parker51]

I agree with you that that is ethically and morally rotten.

 

We all have made legal mistakes. In that case, maybe the victim should have stated in the contract that the product could not be sold otherwise under heavy penalties and defined for arbitration and trial a court in a convenient Country.

 

If all was well, then you are in a conundrum alike any other start-up: will it be worth loss production and failure the cost of a lawsuit? Will you be able to sustain it? I know it is a big deterrent to small, innovative companies, but dealing with it takes us into politics.

No start up company, it made the owners millions when it was in business. It did well for years. The cost of litigating in China is very expensive and at the time there was almost no possibility of getting the courts there to recognize intelectual property and contract violation. Unfortunately the owners of the company had incorrectly assumed that their Chinese partners would be honorable and follow the contracts and if not, that the courts there would enforce the contracts. They found it not to be so.

 

And so a full studio of artists lost their jobs. The new owners (partners as their was not a total bankruptcy, just a reorganization which eliminated the in house production facilities, the design studio, the warehouse, and customer service) now only do wholesale and Liscense their designs to others. The origonal owners while not bringing in millions each year still are wealthy, still living in their respective homes (large expensive architect designed custom houses, one with a pool, guest house, etc. on a scenic piece of property, the other in a very expensive golf course community). We haven't seen their children around, but, after they graduated from their expensive private schools, went to their respective Ivy League Universities and found their vocations, they tended to stay on the coasts. We are uncertain as to what happened to their CEO as she didn't live near here, but as her husband was a university professor, she likely is still around. She was one of those hard working people who worked not due to a need for money, but for the challenge. My wife's former supervisor is still around and her husband is still on the local school board. Their daughter who went to school with our daughter is out of state someplace, having gone so after university.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Parker51

[como]

Copycats might win some wallets, but they don't win hearts. Creativity and innovation are the soul of any sustainable business. If low cost is a company's only advantage, it doesn't end well.

[txomsy]

Yes, those were the times...

 

There is now a mature ecosystem and abundant literature on Chinese business and negotiation tactics and, at least, now people "can" be better informed if they search for that information.

 

Mind you, it is not a "Chinese" issue. Each culture has its own assumptions about the meaning and use of "negotiation" and one should know them well before engaging in international relationships.

 

That is why Heads of States have Protocol and Diplomacy bodies with specialized ambassadors devoted to each Country. I always though it was pure foolery and presumption when in the '90s-2000's many CEOs thought they were so smart that they didn't need any help to negotiate in "novel" cultures (as, e.g. China was in those moments). They believed that what had worked in Europe, Middle East or Africa would trivially apply as well in Asia, that they already knew everything and that they were smarter than anyone else, ignoring any advice that contradicted their self-esteem.

 

And we can still see many companies making the same mistakes. On both sides.

[Estycollector]

So, what happens if Parker uses Wing Sung to produce their Parker 51 revival? Some will probably say, well it's a real Parker and the Wing Sung 601 isn't. So, it's worth paying $200 for a Wing Sung Parker 51? Does Parker deserve $180 for engraving their brand?

[Pickwick]

So, what happens if Parker uses Wing Sung to produce their Parker 51 revival? Some will probably say, well it's a real Parker and the Wing Sung 601 isn't. So, it's worth paying $200 for a Wing Sung Parker 51? Does Parker deserve $180 for engraving their brand?

The Parker name is all that is left of the original company and owned by Newell Rubbermaid. According to Wikipedia it's sad to note because of the quality of the pens the lifetime guarantee Parker proudly gave to his customers has been reduced to a two year warranty.

[Parker51]

If Wing Sung makes an exact reproduction of the top of the line Parker 51, for, Parker then yes, the pen is worth $200, but that pen would not simply be a $20 pen Wing Sung model with the Parker name on it. It would instead have a 14kt gold tubular nib of my choice, perhaps a factory double broad, stub or left oblique, an identical feed and an identical filling mechanism, either vacumatic or aerometric with a plyglass sack a body made out of high quality and long lastingplastic and a high quality gold filled or sterling silver cap with a nice pattern in it and heavily gold plated furniture.

 

If however it is a poorly made copy out of inferior materials, then no it would not be appropriate for it to be $200, more like $2.

 

And, if it wasn't a copy of a Parker 51, but a Parker 51 Special and it had a stainless steel cap, then again it wouldn't be worth $200, it would be worth $50.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Parker51

[txomsy]

Do not forget QA. An often observed trend is for mainstream makers requiring exactingly high levels of quality control, and the reason for the kick-offs is usually to find a way out for the items that didn't make it to the quality standard.

 

So, one would also factor quality in. If the Parker was high quality, say, only one in every 5 produced met the standards while the other 4 didn't (despite still being usable), you'd expect the price to be 5-10x for the Parker than for the knock-off.

 

If people perceived that the Parker had that higher quality (whether true or not), maybe because of advertising and association with the brand name, they would also be willing to pay 5-10x more for the Parker (whether true or not) than for the knock-off.

 

Say, a T-shirt. You may be able to find one in better cotton, manufacture and quality from an unknown seller than on a boutique, but you'll pay 100x more for the one in the boutique just because of the branding. The "you" here being a generic one.

[Estycollector]

So, Parker can either copy itself as some collectors would prefer or something along the lines of a Wing Sung 601 that is well made has a metal plunger fill system, and writes well.

 

We need to remember that the general public is not going to have the vast amount of information and history about the vintage "51s". These less knowledgeable buyers are going to be the market and not a relative few FP geeks who are more difficult to satisfy.

[Karmachanic]

Yes, those were the times...

 

There is now a mature ecosystem and abundant literature on Chinese business and negotiation tactics and, at least, now people "can" be better informed if they search for that information.

 

Mind you, it is not a "Chinese" issue. Each culture has its own assumptions about the meaning and use of "negotiation" and one should know them well before engaging in international relationships.

 

That is why Heads of States have Protocol and Diplomacy bodies with specialized ambassadors devoted to each Country. I always though it was pure foolery and presumption when in the '90s-2000's many CEOs thought they were so smart that they didn't need any help to negotiate in "novel" cultures (as, e.g. China was in those moments). They believed that what had worked in Europe, Middle East or Africa would trivially apply as well in Asia, that they already knew everything and that they were smarter than anyone else, ignoring any advice that contradicted their self-esteem.

 

And we can still see many companies making the same mistakes. On both sides.

 

 

Ignorance and hubris. Lot's of it about these days. Inevitably leads to "interesting" results.

[Parker51]

Do not forget QA. An often observed trend is for mainstream makers requiring exactingly high levels of quality control, and the reason for the kick-offs is usually to find a way out for the items that didn't make it to the quality standard.

 

So, one would also factor quality in. If the Parker was high quality, say, only one in every 5 produced met the standards while the other 4 didn't (despite still being usable), you'd expect the price to be 5-10x for the Parker than for the knock-off.

 

If people perceived that the Parker had that higher quality (whether true or not), maybe because of advertising and association with the brand name, they would also be willing to pay 5-10x more for the Parker (whether true or not) than for the knock-off.

 

Say, a T-shirt. You may be able to find one in better cotton, manufacture and quality from an unknown seller than on a boutique, but you'll pay 100x more for the one in the boutique just because of the branding. The "you" here being a generic one.

Boutique? Other than women's clothes I am unfamiliar with any and they are well known as being a joke in regard to quality versus price. In our town they have a life span of 6 months to a year before the owners due to a lack of sales fold.

[senzen]

I take the point of view of the consumer rather than of vendors: you have counterfeit products which try to copy original designs and fool consumers; you have consumers who themselves look for cheaper lookalikes; and you have consumers who will look for the best products precisely because they are expensive and wouldn't be caught dead with a copy, like the millions of Chinese consumers who have buoyed the worldwide luxury market.

 

For vendors there is a huge difference in pricing and profitability between these situations: not only is it morally bankrupt, it's economically inefficient, those vendors producing lookalikes could be doing way better if they tried to understand what their customers appreciate. I'd love a reengineered Waterman Laureat section at the price of a whole chinese pen, or a better Lamy Studio section, not another Safari knockoff.

 

What fascinates me is the mental process each type of consumer goes through, for instance the segment which complains about job losses in their country but happily goes for the cheapest knock off they can find, obviously feeding those same job losses domestically; or the ones complaining about Ray Ban prices, with no gun held to their heads to buy it. Humanity, the sitcom for the rest of the universe.

[Estycollector]

The market that chooses a Wing Sung 601 is neither uninformed, complaining about job losses, or looking for a cheap knock off. For folks willing to get over brand allegiance, the can learn there are alternatives. This can and does have the effect of bring down the prices of branded items.

 

I discovered that Parker was not the only pen company making hooded nibs back in the day, but the design was not popular over time. It is more popular among collectors than users if the market can be trusted.

[Pickwick]

The market that chooses a Wing Sung 601 is neither uninformed, complaining about job losses, or looking for a cheap knock off. For folks willing to get over brand allegiance, the can learn there are alternatives. This can and does have the effect of bring down the prices of branded items.

 

I discovered that Parker was not the only pen company making hooded nibs back in the day, but the design was not popular over time. It is more popular among collectors than users if the market can be trusted.

Your last sentence puts this discussion in its correct perspective.

[Bibliophage]

I've used both the 601 and the 601a. I bought both just to play with.

 

They both write just fine - they're just stiff, which I like, and exceedingly fine, which I don't.

[Estycollector]

I've used both the 601 and the 601a. I bought both just to play with.

 

They both write just fine - they're just stiff, which I like, and exceedingly fine, which I don't.

For me, the hood obscures the angle of the nib when I am making notes in my car or less than flat writing surfaces. I am pleased with the 601 otherwise.

[Parker51]

I disagree that consumers don't like hooded nibbed pens. Parker sold very large numbers of 51s. They had competitors copying the idea. They even copied it themselves with the 21. And, most ballpoints for a long time looks suspiciously like 51s as do most rollerball pens.

Fountain pens by and large went out of style. Those that were collected and those that were produced for that market, our market were open nibbed pens. The only attempt by Parker to reintroduce the 51 was expensive and plagued by production poblems.

The Chinese made hooded nibbed fountain pens have not heavily penetrated the market. They sister and are bought online by many of us. There is nothing wrong with them.

But, they are not a mass market item today, no fountain pens are in the US.

If Wing Sung decided to produce the 601 in a variety of interesting colors, materials and treatments, under a better sounding name, something other than Wing Sung which sounds awkward in English and doesn't bring to mind a quality writing instrument, coupled with the sale of great inks in pretty bottles and they got a major US retailer to sell them, then not only might hooded nibs make a comeback, Fountain Pens might.

[Estycollector]

The big luxury brands, MB, Pelikan, and Waterman ever produce a hooded nib version?

 

Perhaps keeping ink from drying out and preserving what was left of the FP market was more important than consumer preference for a hooded nib.

[silverlifter]

I discovered that Parker was not the only pen company making hooded nibs back in the day, but the design was not popular over time. It is more popular among collectors than users if the market can be trusted.

 

That claim is easily dispatched. The P51 sold more pens than any other model in history.

 

The Lamy 2000 has been in continuous production since the 1960s. Together, that makes it pretty clear that both users and collectors favour the design.

 

And that is without considering the other hooded nib pens, both vintage and modern...

Edited January 23, 2020 by silverlifter

[Estycollector]

 

That claim is easily dispatched. The P51 sold more pens than any other model in history.

 

The Lamy 2000 has been in continuous production since the 1960s. Together, that makes it pretty clear that both users and collectors favour the design.

 

And that is without considering the other hooded nib pens, both vintage and modern...

Was the popularity simply based on unit sales? If so, youd guess a pen in production from 41 to 72 would sale many units.

 

Other brands, while copying the hooded design, didnt persist.

[silverlifter]

Was the popularity simply based on unit sales? If so, youd guess a pen in production from 41 to 72 would sale many units.

 

The only marker for "popularity" is unit sales, so I'm not sure what your point is. The pen was in production for such a long time becuase people continued to buy it.

 

 

 

Other brands, while copying the hooded design, didnt persist.

 

Except the L2K, and all of the Chinese clones of the P51 which continue to sell like hotcakes.

 

Oh, and the P51 itself, which is coming back this year...

 

 

 

*edit: italicisation screwed up and apparently can't be fixed

Edited January 23, 2020 by silverlifter