Jacques Herbin Nude By Marc-Antoine Coulon

[Intensity]

Yikes, it's so pale. It's especially apparent on the photograph in the previous post. Makes me think of my similarly toned PenBBS Rose Quartz. However, in Rose Quartz' favor is the fact that it looks great used with a flexy dip pen or vintage pen with high flow and flexible nib. There's a very nice dark outline that becomes visible with wetter pens otherwise, but it's highly prominent with dip pen writing. "Nude" doesn't have that dark component. If they had named this Jacques Herbin ink "Rose Quartz", it'd be a lot more aptly named.

[txomsy]

 

Whoa!

It's the very same problem that is attached to flesh-/nude-/skin-coloured crayons. A quick Google search will explain that much better than I'd be able to.

 

 

Dominique

 

I agree. I think that so many of our words are influenced by custom, where custom has been building and piling up for millenia that trying to attach a new meaning to them is sometimes ludicrous. When I see a calligraphy nib from China I understand it is not a flexible or italic nib, And I wouldn't dare suggest they change their name because that is not what calligraphy means for me. Same for a calligraphy nib in the Muslim world: I know it is a left handed oblique but wouldn't suggest the use be banned because it is not universal. For Caucasian peoples, there has been a "reference" skin color for millenia and it is deeply ingrained in their culture. Even in the South of Europe, where skin color may often be closer to African.

 

Much as it is typical for a Chinese "calligraphy" pen to refer to something different from a Muslim "calligraphy" pen or an Occidental "calligraphy" pen, it is typical that in each part of the World people will have their own concept of "skin color". BTW, the very term "Calligraphy" suffers the same problem: it refers to different things, tools, aesthetics, etc... in different cultures.

 

Yes we can ban the use of general terms like pen, calligraphy or skin color because they are not universal. Or -I prefer- we can accept the richness of cultural variability and learn to coexist accepting that the same word may have different meanings in different contexts, although that means making an extra effort to learn, appreciate and tolerate other cultures.

 

Interestingly, when I've been in Muslim countries, which specially love Arabic Calligraphy (as probably the main graphical art), people would still be appreciative of Italic or Cursive writing, not complain because it wasn't "proper Calligraphy". Everyone would understand that for each of us Calligraphy meant a different look.

[Enkida]

I am on the fence about trying to explain this because everyone and their brother and sister are more eloquent than me, but let's take a stab...

 

And as for skin colour... that would be off-topic, but a ) all races have lighter and darker parts of the body, specially in areas that don't often see the light of Sun, b ) I find it a somewhat undefined colour that may work for most melanin-depleted skin variants/body parts and c ) what would a "politically correct" name be? I can't hardly think of any description that can evoke the concept of skin colour and not be offensive to some itchy purists. At least 'nude' doesn't mention any of the two taboo words (skin or colour).

 

I can only assume you don't keep up with makeup news, where this kind of attitude was normal and frustrating for most women for years (and still is). Manufacturers have learned to roll with various non-offensive names, mostly since they cater to this skin range but want to sell a lot of foundation, they have to come up with at least 6 to 12 differently named nuanced versions of "beige." Some companies have started to challenge this recently since it's been in the news a lot, such as Rhianna's wildly successful line of inclusive Fenty foundations, which shouldn't have been groundbreaking in 2017 but sadly was. The fashion industry has caught up a little faster, at least.

 

Meanwhile, since manufacturers have always catered to that skin tone, they have a billion different ways of describing the nuances between them, such as

 

 

 

I don't know, but that could pass as a "fawn" to me, or maybe and "almond" or a "creme beige".

[Intensity]

 

I agree. I think that so many of our words are influenced by custom, where custom has been building and piling up for millenia that trying to attach a new meaning to them is sometimes ludicrous. When I see a calligraphy nib from China I understand it is not a flexible or italic nib, And I wouldn't dare suggest they change their name because that is not what calligraphy means for me. Same for a calligraphy nib in the Muslim world: I know it is a left handed oblique but wouldn't suggest the use be banned because it is not universal. For Caucasian peoples, there has been a "reference" skin color for millenia and it is deeply ingrained in their culture. Even in the South of Europe, where skin color may often be closer to African.

 

Much as it is typical for a Chinese "calligraphy" pen to refer to something different from a Muslim "calligraphy" pen or an Occidental "calligraphy" pen, it is typical that in each part of the World people will have their own concept of "skin color". BTW, the very term "Calligraphy" suffers the same problem: it refers to different things, tools, aesthetics, etc... in different cultures.

 

Yes we can ban the use of general terms like pen, calligraphy or skin color because they are not universal. Or -I prefer- we can accept the richness of cultural variability and learn to coexist accepting that the same word may have different meanings in different contexts, although that means making an extra effort to learn, appreciate and tolerate other cultures.

 

Interestingly, when I've been in Muslim countries, which specially love Arabic Calligraphy (as probably the main graphical art), people would still be appreciative of Italic or Cursive writing, not complain because it wasn't "proper Calligraphy". Everyone would understand that for each of us Calligraphy meant a different look.

 

It's probably going to lead nowhere with people who wish to excuse and explain away misguided J. Herbin's and similar marketing, but I'll point out that there's a difference between words losing their original meaning over time and modern world reality when it comes to descriptions of people. France is a multi-cultural nation with people of all colors roaming the streets of Paris (I know, I've visited many times). As Enkida pointed out above, "nude" doesn't have a single color. Nude means without clothes, bare skin. Bare skin has an array of colors, which has been known and accepted in the civilized world for decades, centuries, and millenia. Even in the make-up world, there have been countless hues of foundations for much more than a decade. Art world is also keenly aware of color--it's one of the cornerstones of visual media art to represent and interpret the environment. If a person has an opinion that all naked people have that skin color, that's their personal belief. Just saying that there might be a small area on a person where they lack pigmentation and might be of that rosy peachy pale color is not a good excuse. But J. Herbin the Company said "great, we agree and will put this name on our ink bottle, and we'll even run an ad for it". That had to have gone through their marketing department and quite a few people in between to get approval, art work, advertising, etc. Really no good excuse in this day and age.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Intensity

[txomsy]

Thanks. I wasn't aware this 'politically correct terminology' has gotten so far.

 

I still fail to see it as offensive, maybe because I've been to too many places and grown used to the same words having different meanings in each. This voided them of emotional connotations for me. If I see a "nude" or "skin color" label, I assume it may be anything from pure black to pure white with not just greys in between depending on who used the term.

 

Maybe also because I've seen to much marketing in my life, I've also grown used not to pay any attention to potential associated meanings of marketroid talk: if a mass produced factory item can be labelled "artisan home-made", then market labels should have no meaning.

 

That words now have an inherent "emotional connotation" is foreign to me. For me, words are words, any emotional connotation is in the intention and manner in which they are used. In the extreme everything is nothing and anything depending on how it is used. Quixotic? I was stunned by the abundant use of swearwords the first time I read Don Quixote.

 

“Well,” said Sancho, “I own it, and I grant it is no dishonour to call anyone whoreson when it is to be understood as praise."

Which is why I feel inclined to accept that the French producers of J. Herbin may have considered it not offensive (I know, D. Q. is not French).

 

Anyway, I am sorry and apologize if I left my view obscure the perception of how offensive words may be in and of themselves in some cultures. By way of apology, it wasn't my intention to justify any "oppressive use" of words", but to point that we live in a multicultural world and what may be considered offensive in one culture may not be so in a different one.

[sightsome]

interesting...

[Bhavna]

This is a grotesque and offensive 'ink'. The word 'why' comes to mind. However, thank you for taking the time out to share your review.

[minddance]

if I had not read this review, I might have gotten tricked into buying a bottle. Thank you for the review and showing us this ink.

 

for me, it is way too diluted and won't work for my fine-nibbled pens. Please stop producing very very diluted pale inks.

[DrDebG]

The word 'why' comes to mind.

 

My question exactly!

[inkstainedruth]

 

My question exactly!

 

Mine too. The rationale of some [read: MANY] companies' marketing departments boggles the mind.

My dad worked in the research division for IBM for over 30 years. The last project he worked on, his boss asked for him to be part of. His boss had taken a floundering project, figured out how to make it work, GOT it to work and got an AWARD for getting it to work. Then, IBM's marketing department killed it....

In rereading this thread, I keep wondering what a guy I used to know would have thought. He hung out in the campus coffeehouse at the university I went to. Not sure if he was a student (not all the patrons were). At one point when I was a senior, Ernie asked if he knew of any professors -- I was an art major -- were looking for people to be models. I said to check with my sculpture professor, since at the time I was taking a Scupture class. We'd had the head of Sudent Council be the model for doing a bust in clay, and then casting it (I still have "Herman's head" in the corner of my living room to this day). Then, at the end of the semester, we were doing quick clay poses over armatures. So a week or two later, there's Ernie, butt naked, in my class. By then, I'd had enough life drawings to not freak out at nude models -- even male models) so it was like "Hey, you got the job? Cool!"

Now Ernie happened to be African-American. So nothing remotely like the color of this ink. (He was also military, or ex-military, and extremely buff and slim and kinda cute -- I probably would have gone out with him if he'd asked because he was also a nice guy). But I wonder, all these years later, what he would have made of an ink this color being called "Nude"..... [blink]

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Raiche58]

Fountain pen ink for "gaslighters"? I like it, but would never use it in correspondence. It would just be an annoyance. In art it could be fun.

[Gris Nuage]

I quite like it.

[KaB]

Lovely review, terrible ink. ;-)

 

 

you can say that again!

[timotheap]

Thanks for the review, when I saw that ink advertised somewhere I thought " never in a million years".

 

Reading the thread I don't know whether to laugh or to be actually worried that some sort of political correctness should also be at work in the world of fountain pens. I have no problem with the name of this ink.

[Karmachanic]

Don't worry. It won't last.

[PAKMAN]

Interesting but not for me.

[Mercian]

The naming controversy & causing of offence to people whose skin is not this colour (which is the majority of people), could easily have been avoided if the ink had been named something like ‘Peau de Marc-Antoine’ or ‘Peau de MAC’.

 

To monoglot Englanders like me, that name in French sounds ‘elegant’ or ‘sophisticated’ - in much the same way that ‘Poussière de Lune’ sounds much more ‘classy’ than does ‘moon dust’.

 

The ink itself is clearly only going to be useful to people who use inks for sketching or ‘painting’.

As an ‘artistic exercise’ in reproducing a skin tone of northern Europeans, one could consider it to be a success.

But it is far too pale to be used as a conventional ink (i.e. for writing), even with very broad nibs.
Although I suppose that one might be able to use it to write artists’ names in any space left underneath their work on white backgrounds - especially for nude portraits of northern Europeans.

[TSherbs]

Stupid ink, stupid name

 

 

.

Edited February 7, 2020 by TSherbs

[Anne-Sophie]

Those very light inks are made to write on dark paper, especially G.Lalo stationery, which is -the- classic formal stationery in France, since the 1920's.

 

The pale Rouille d'Ancre and this ink, which I call a pale warm beige that reminds me of caramel ice cream, have followed Rose Tendresse, Diabolo Menthe, Bleu Azur and Gris Nuage in the ultra light, cannot really be read on white paper, inks.

 

At school, in art classes, I wrote on Canson color paper (Canson Mi-Teintes) with a dip pen and light color inks.

 

 

Canson has expended its line of color paper, many with a dark hue, for art and craft, they now have 2 other lines.

 

Herbin has expended its sets of writing instruments with a goose quill, reed pen, glass pens, 2 fountain pens and one refillable with ink cartridge roller ball pen, they, now, also offers 8 writing sets with dip pens.

 

 

That color is the only one available for girls and women's ballet shoes and tights in the most available brands, from dance studios.

 

I am much paler than that color and asked to buy white ballet shoes. White and black ballet shoes were reserved for boys and men dancers.

 

 

As far as makeup is concerned, I had to wait until Shiseido introduced their makeup line in France, to find a foundation shade that wasn't pale honey, or weak tea with milk.

 

In the U.S, I also saw the same thing, until one makeup brand, hired Halle Berry, ensuring a wide spectrum of foundation shades.

 

 

An Albert Durer Watercolor pencils has almost the same shade which they now call Beige Red, it is a pinky beige, the hue of ballet slippers.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Anne-Sophie

[nibtip]

Thank you for your explanation. I finally understand why these inks exist.

An interesting digression about ballet shoes color too.