Adding Pleasant Feedback To An Overly Smooth Nib: How?

[TheDutchGuy]

Usually folks want to make a nib more smooth. Now suppose you have a pen that you like, but the nib is glassy smooth, without a tactile response, so your handwriting goes all over the place. And suppose that youd want to introduce a nice, pencil-like (or Sailor-like, if you will) feedback. How to go about that?

 

Ive given this matter some thought and I think this would be much more difficult than smoothing a nib and my 2 cts (basically speculation) is at the bottom of this post, for what it is worth. Id be very interested to hear other peoples opinions on this matter. Any experiences? Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

(Edit: the lack of apostrophes in this post is due to an iOS software imcompatibility - sorry about that.)

 

 

 

My 2 cts:

 

-What not not do: use something like 3k or 1k micromesh to roughen up the nib. This will only cause grooves on the nib surface. This will slow the nib down, but it wont be pleasant feedback.

 

-With most pens (except Sailor), I think pleasant pencil-like feedback is caused mostly by the (lack of) rounding of the inner tines edges, not by roughness on the outside surface of the nib. With Sailor, I think (as in: speculation) that its a combination of complex facets on the nib surface and just the right amount (and shape) of rounding of the inner tine edges. Sailors recipe is a complex one and not easily recreated.

 

-If Im right about most of the pleasant feedback coming from the edges of the inner tines, then once a nib is super-smooth you wont be able to introduce pleasant feedback in just a few minor steps. It would involve inserting micromesh into the nib slit and removing material until the rounded edges of the nib slit have become more square (not easy). Then the nib slit might have become too wide, bringing with a need to press them together, at the risk of misaligning the tines. Last but not least, if you go to far then youd have to smoothen the inner edges to _just_ the right degree of rounding to get the feedback you want (not easy).

Edited July 19, 2019 by TheDutchGuy

[DonM]

I think this is a very interesting topic, and I have a bit different slant on it. I think the "feedback" of nibs like Sailor is a function of the type of alloy used in the tipping material, and not a function of the physical smoothness of any nib surface or shape of grind. I put "feedback" in quotes because I think much of what some folks consider feedback is really misaligned tines or insufficient smoothing of the nib at manufacture. That's not what I think we are discussing here.

 

I've done some careful smoothing on a couple of Sailor nibs because I have a preference for glass smooth nibs. The result was no change in "feedback", so I have concluded it is something other than physical smoothness of the nib. Additionally, with continued use you would expect a nib to get smoother over time. That does not seem to be the case with nibs like Sailor's, which seems to support my theory of nib alloy being the cause of this sort of "feedback".

[TheDutchGuy]

I’ve heard this before, that smoothing Sailor doesn’t work to the same extent as smoothing other nibs works. It could be the material, as you say. Interesting!

 

However some of my other pens have a similar kind of feedback, such as my Visconti HS with 23k Pd nib. I even have some cheap steel nibs that have it. So this kind of feedback is probably achievable with a certain kind of shaping/rounding.

[Thymen]

I wondered about this too. The tipping material of Sailor may be sintered from somewhat coarser material, or compressed a little less. Guess the same applies to Platinum nibs. Smoothing then would not go beyond a certain limit. And the opposite may be true for the 'denser' tipping material.

 

I like the feedback Sailor and Platinum pens give; but the glassy smoothness of Montblanc is also very nice. It does have a significant impact om my handwriting, and it's good one can have both, albeit not in the same nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'd slightly rough up the nib on the second section of the three grit buffing stick, then have a go at the smooth side. That should get you good and smooth, the level just under butter smooth.

You will be able to feel the paper..............or go over to cheap paper.

[SchaumburgSwan]

My 2 cts:

..

 

-With most pens (except Sailor), I think pleasant pencil-like feedback is caused mostly by the (lack of) rounding of the inner tines edges, not by roughness on the outside surface of the nib. With Sailor, I think (as in: speculation) that its a combination of complex facets on the nib surface and just the right amount (and shape) of rounding of the inner tine edges. Sailors recipe is a complex one and not easily recreated.

...

 

Hi,

 

interesting! I don't have any japanese nibs, so let me ask:

 

Are those slightly stubbish? With about 20 to 50% wider downstroke lines?

I have a few vintage Swan nibs that feel like you describe, those are like this.

Others with more roundish tips don't give such feedback... they feel more like a modern Lamy F or M tip.

 

Best

Jens

[Honeybadgers]

For pilot like feedback, 12k grit micro mesh will get you there.

 

For sailor, 10k.

 

For platinum, just go ahead and misalign the tines

[Honeybadgers]

 

Hi,

 

interesting! I don't have any japanese nibs, so let me ask:

 

Are those slightly stubbish? With about 20 to 50% wider downstroke lines?

I have a few vintage Swan nibs that feel like you describe, those are like this.

Others with more roundish tips don't give such feedback... they feel more like a modern Lamy F or M tip.

 

Best

Jens

 

No japanese nibs are stubbish except for ones marked as stub or music.

 

The broads, double broads (called coarse in japan) and zoom (which is a little different with its triangular grind but writes the same) are all balls

[Aditkamath26]

I use Wet/Dry Sandpaper to smooth my nibs because in my part of the world, Micromesh isn't available and has to be imported and usually ends up costing a lot. I use 2000 grit, 3000 grit and 7000 grit with loads of water on the surface. After 7k, it gives me a an almost ultra smooth nib and I usually stop there. If I wanted to add feedback, I would take 3k and cut a small piece and hold the pen steady, and use the sandpaper with a feather touch at the writing surface, making movements (not more than two each) from top to bottom, bottom to top, left to right, right to left, and corner to corner. This gives me feedback almost at Platinum's level. Then, I repeat the same with the 7k. If I'm happy with that, I stop there. If it needs more smoothing, I repeat the 7k step.

[SchaumburgSwan]

 

No japanese nibs are stubbish except for ones marked as stub or music.

 

The broads, double broads (called coarse in japan) and zoom (which is a little different with its triangular grind but writes the same) are all balls

 

OK, I see.

 

Best

Jens

[DonM]

For pilot like feedback, 12k grit micro mesh will get you there.

 

For sailor, 10k.

 

For platinum, just go ahead and misalign the tines

[minddance]

I won't do anything to the nib. I will change the paper I am writing on to get "feedback". with some papers, even the smoothest of nibs will give you feedback.

 

anything rubbing against the surface of paper will have feedback. a smooth back of a spoon will have feedback. an eraser, a fingernail against paper.

 

what feedback exactly are you after? are you looking for a new pen? or trying to make a Pelikan write like a Sailor?

 

if you like sailor kind, actually F and MF are 1 group. M and B nibs are another group of feedback.

 

Platinum too, different nib widths different feedback.

 

Pilot too. different nib width has different nib grind, and different type/amount of feedback.

 

pick you brand then the nib width? or vice versa? to get the feedback you want.

 

for me, there is never "too smooth".

[TheDutchGuy]

what feedback exactly are you after? are you looking for a new pen? or trying to make a Pelikan write like a Sailor?

Just want to learn, trying to crack the code. No intentions of turning a Pelikan into a Sailor. Just roughing up the surface with coarse micromesh doesn’t cut it for me (I tried on cheap nibs). I think there’s merit in the theory that for some Sailor nibs it’s intrinsic in the material, but their nibs also have quite a complex shape and a lot of craftsmanship goes into it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I wasn't advocating re-grindind the nib, but lightly rotating it. for a few seconds on the second level of the buff stick...which would not alter the nib geometry.

 

Personally I couldn't see any 'mythical nib geometry undoing a few seconds of making a nib a bit scratchy/rougher.....before polishing it half way back to where it once was...........same movement, same rotation, but only half the polishing.***..............speaking of three- five seconds on the micro-mesh... middle rough....or the smooth side.

***polishing is work, that can't be returned to what it was before in only a few seconds.

 

I don't think cheap nibs have butter smooth, or they would not be cheap.

 

If one don't want to use micro-mesh....take the cardboard back of a legal and and rotate-scribble the back half full.......................butter smooth should be removed....lots less dangerous than micro-mesh.....Scribble for three or four minutes while rotating the nib.....something I'd never, ever suggest on micro-mesh.

 

Could try removing butter smooth on a good quality brown paper bag, which is a tad smoother than the back of a legal pad.

[Honeybadgers]

Just want to learn, trying to crack the code. No intentions of turning a Pelikan into a Sailor. Just roughing up the surface with coarse micromesh doesn’t cut it for me (I tried on cheap nibs). I think there’s merit in the theory that for some Sailor nibs it’s intrinsic in the material, but their nibs also have quite a complex shape and a lot of craftsmanship goes into it.

 

Nope, there is no trick. It's all in the grit.

 

Coarse micro mesh is like 3000 grit. You're waaaaaay too far down at that (I'm guessing you aren't or you'd be asking us a whole different question, lol)

 

10k will give you that sailor like pencil feeling. 8 or 9k if you want it even toothier. 7 and below, you're in the realm of scratchy.

 

12k will give you the pilot sensation of drag

 

1 micron mylar will give you an ultra smooth nib and 0.3 micron will give you that hot buttered glass feeling.

 

When you're on final polish duty, the only way to be sure you're getting exactly what you expect at the higher grits is with good quality micro mesh. Goulet's sourced 12k is very, very good and you get a good sized piece, enough for dozens of pens.

 

Buff sticks are a poor man's way. They work, and once you get used to them, work well enough to get a great writer, but every one is different and only really lets you aim for getting an individual pen writing well, but if you are REALLY after a specific kind of feedback, you want micro mesh.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[TheDutchGuy]

...take the cardboard back of a legal and and rotate-scribble the back half full... butter smooth should be removed... lots less dangerous than micro-mesh... Scribble for three or four minutes while rotating the nib... something I'd never, ever suggest on micro-mesh.

Interesting suggestion. I might experiment with that on a cheap nib.

[Honeybadgers]

I find that doesn't really work. it's also extremely inconsistent. Cardboard is only abrasive in that it has very large, random chunks of stuff. Again, you might get it to work, but you're chasing a very inconsistent unicorn. Yes, paper is a mild abrasive, but it takes decades of regular use to wear a flat spot on a pen.

 

If you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound. Buy $15-20 worth of some GOOD 3k-12k micro mesh. It'll last you darn near forever.

 

When you're polishing a round nib, the only hard rule is to never spend more than 5 seconds on a single spot and move it all over, even polishing at angles you would never write at. You want to even out every tiny little flat spot you create. go in 30 second chunks, don't use any pressure (if you do, you'll spread the tines and polish the insides, creating baby's bottom)

Edited July 21, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[TheDutchGuy]

It's all in the grit.

Shape matters too. In my experience the inner tines really influence the kind (and the amount) of feedback. Angular means scratchy, overpolished means baby’s bottom. The magic is somewhere in between. I don’t think you can disregard the inner tines from the equation.

[TheDutchGuy]

Buy $15-20 worth of some GOOD 3k-12k micro mesh. It'll last you darn near forever.

It’s indispensable and I’ve got a nice stack of it.

 

When you're polishing a round nib, the only hard rule is to never spend more than 5 seconds on a single spot and move it all over, even polishing at angles you would never write at. You want to even out every tiny little flat spot you create. go in 30 second chunks, don't use any pressure (if you do, you'll spread the tines and polish the insides, creating baby's bottom)

Completely agreed.

[Honeybadgers]

Shape matters too. In my experience the inner tines really influence the kind (and the amount) of feedback. Angular means scratchy, overpolished means baby’s bottom. The magic is somewhere in between. I don’t think you can disregard the inner tines from the equation.

 

That's not really what I meant by shape not mattering. Shape matters in making sure a nib writes correctly, but doesn't make a blind bit of difference in smoothness. I thought you were mentioning that sailor used some special techniques in their shape and tipping material composition to affect the smoothness, which is patently not the case.

 

the only witchcraft we could accuse sailor of is how they get such a great, consistent result on grinding the zoom nibs, and nagahara san definitely sacrificed goats or something in order to make those stunning stacked nibs.

 

Please don't make me break out my microscope to prove it

Edited July 21, 2019 by Honeybadgers