Mabie Todd Gold Pens?

[chunya]

Are all Gold Swans either hallmarked or if American then stamped with the gold purity, ie 9ct etc ?

I had always assumed that this was the case, I have enough of them to hand, and if no hallmark then you could assume that it was plated or filled.

I saw this pen being offered at Auction with an estimate of £450 - £500, described as a Gold Pen weighing 21g. which would be pretty much all the money and more even for an 18K overlay pen. I asked them about stamps and they said there were none, so I said in that case it's very likely gold filled.

They changed their description to 'Yellow Metal' and it just went under the hammer ... someone paid £400 + commission, which online was 33.6%, so that is a £540 pen

It is an attractive example ..... but am I missing something, or will the buyer get a nasty surprise?

 

 

 

 

Below we have five gold pens, all stamped or hallmarked, and one (far left) gold filled.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by chunya

[Greenie]

In my experience, you are correct. Unmarked Swan "yellow metal" pens are gold filled, and you can find a little brassing here or there if you look hard enough.

 

The gold pens are marked as to purity, or bear hallmarks.

 

I think someone will eventually be disappointed by their purchase in that auction.

[chunya]

Thank you for that, Greenie ... it's good to know that I've not been wrong all these years.

I feel sorry for that poor buyer, and rather annoyed with the Auction House. I have a feeling that a few had already left commission bids before the description was changed ... I think they really should have withdrawn it from the sale.

 

Almost on the same topic, what about the old Edward Todd & Co gold combi pens? I've seen images of these on the rare occasion, but never ever any mention of whether they're stamped with the gold purity, were things different back in the late 1800's?

Edited September 4, 2018 by chunya

[chunya]

Thank you for that, Greenie ... it's good to know that I've not been wrong all these years.

I feel sorry for that poor buyer, and rather annoyed with the Auction House. I have a feeling that a few had already left commission bids before the description was changed ... I think they really should have withdrawn it from the sale.

 

Almost on the same topic, what about the old Edward Todd & Co gold combi pens? I've seen images of these on the rare occasion, but never ever any mention of whether they're stamped with the gold purity, were things different back in the late 1800's?

 

I can answer my own question, it wasn't until the National Stamping Act of 1906 that stamping gold became a legal requirement and Standard in the USA. Before that it was optional, and some goldsmiths thought that stamping their items would ruin their artwork.

So these early 19th century Edward Todd pens may not be stamped.

Edited September 6, 2018 by chunya

[PaulS]

"So these early 19th century Todd pens may not be stamped." - in fact they'd not even been invented at that date - wrong century, unfortunately

 

lovely collection of pens chunya - regret I can't compete remotely, and my only M.T. gold looking pen is a g.f. l.f. made in U.S.A., although it doesn't anywhere on the pen say r.g. or g.f. - I don't know whether stamping - for plated only pens - was omitted from U.S.A. work until a certain date. If pushed I'd date my example to c. 1930, but that's guesswork to some extent - but it's a very nice pen

 

When you refer to the date of 1906 as a reference date for the legal requirement of stamping, assume of course that you mean for pens of solid carat only. I've no idea, but might it be true that for States made pens, there was/is no legal requirement to stamp pens that were plated only ……………. although of course from a sales point of view it carries massive kudos if you can show by stamping that your pen is either r.g. or g.f. - as some States makers did - thinking of P51 here.

Edited September 6, 2018 by PaulS

[chunya]

"So these early 19th century Todd pens may not be stamped." - in fact they'd not even been invented at that date - wrong century, unfortunately

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Yes, all the pens lined up date to the very late 1920's to 1930's, and all nicely hallmarked, except the plated one. ..... It was the Edward Todd 'gold pens' that I was thinking about (I've clarified that now .... ), the odd few that I've seen photos of (probably on the USA / N. America forum, don't seem to have been stamped. Coincidentally I recently won an Edward Todd 'gold' pen at a B & M Auction but it always takes a while for them to arrive. It'll be interesting to see how that one is stamped, if at all. I'm just hoping that it is gold ... fingers crossed.

 

The odd G/F Swan pen I've come across including the one in the photo above, only seem to carry the MT& Co etc imprint, but nothing stating what the overlay is.

Edited September 6, 2018 by chunya

[eachan]

"So these early 19th century Todd pens may not be stamped." - in fact they'd not even been invented at that date - wrong century, unfortunately

 

Wrong end of century actually.

[chunya]

 

"So these early 19th century Todd pens may not be stamped." - in fact they'd not even been invented at that date - wrong century, unfortunately

 

Wrong end of century actually.

 

 

I'm having a problem getting it right today ... ... I meant to describe the Edward Todd pens as 'Early (as in early Todd pens) + 19th century', as opposed to how it came out .... 'early 19th century'

 

You can see how 'for want of a comma, war broke out'

Edited September 6, 2018 by chunya

[PaulS]

- I've no idea, but perhaps there are first third C20 plated States pens, other than M.T., that do in fact carry r.g. or g.f. marks - just that such marking seems to have been thought more worth while later in the century, as with my mention of Parker.

 

My one and only U.S.A. made plated M.T. pen I've already mentioned, came in what might be its original box, in which the wording includes Mabie, Todd & Co., Ltd., London - it appears to be identical to the box shown in your first picture - though mine looks as though someone spilled ink on the white satin part.

 

I bought a very nice plated bodied l.f. pen with warranted nib, several years back, which I was assured was from Mentmore - though the pen lacks any makers imprint...…………… around the cap band area is stamped 'Guaranteed 14 carat rolled gold', and I'd date the pen to somewhere in the late 1930s.

I've a plated a Waterman - probably an 0552 (in Smooth) - mid to late 1920s - and with a N.Y. nib - this lacks any reference to r.g. or g.f. …….then again I've two 1940s Taperites (one U.K. made, one States made) with gilt caps that show either Rolled Gold or 1/10 14 K.T. G.F.

And from the same stable a fully plated French pen from c. 1950. with 18 ct. nib, showing the standard square blocked French imprint for g.f.

 

………… so it seems that marking plated pens picked up steam at the century wore on. Sorry to have digressed from your original M.T. reference.

Edited September 6, 2018 by PaulS

[chunya]

A clearer shot of the pens.

As you can see the bottom two have full UK Mabie Todd gold hallmarks.

The 3rd from the bottom was US made and was originally stamped as 9ct gold, but then carries a set of UK import marks.

The top one, which is the ring top, just carries faint 9ct stamps

 

[chunya]

Hi Paul,

I'm sure that the stamping on GF pens might not have been as strict as it had to be for solid gold overlays. Swan were frequently lax with their model numbering, so maybe that extended to other areas as well ... you could almost love them for it..... doesn't take away from the quality of their nibs and pens

Edited September 6, 2018 by chunya

[PaulS]

very nice - your red backgrounds are making these pens appear as rose gold, possibly (a bit more copper in the mix so I'm told). Are they such in the flesh would you say?. In your second picture the colour difference between plated and solid can be seen clearly.

[sidthecat]

I had a look at my gold-filled ringtop of similar vintage: it has New York marks and no information about its gold content. The wear tells me its secret, though.