Hooded nib pens

[hardyb]

I have a query that is connected to the hooded nib issue. I bought an Underwood Pen and it has a hooded nib. It does not write at all. No ink flow, Any clues or insight? Anyone else had a similar experience?

[sleek_lover]

A number of semi-hooded designs around today - eg. the Waterman Carene, all of Sheaffer inlaid-nib designs - are trying to do both - giving you a big chunk of metal to look at, while hooding most of the feed to reduce evaporation.

 

John

 

John--the Carene IS an inlaid design, as is the correctly identified Sheaf inlaid....

 

Again...we go back to Bauhaus principles...FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION...protect the feed--less evaporation=better performance...and, in this feller's opinion, superior looks.

 

Harley Earle was not called in to design the Montblanc 74/Generation...he was called in to design the Waterman C/F. MB just stole the design...uncreative bastards that they are...

 

Bill...who has not seen much of Mr. T recently...I wanted to personally tell him we have named aluminum "rust" after him...MTER

[marklavar]

Having a hood over the nib of a pen seems to be an obvious advantage - it makes the pen much more resistant to drying out while "idling", pampers temperamental inks, and may help reduce ink loss through evapaoration, making pens write longer on the same amount of ink.

 

So why are the Lamy 2K and a few Parker 51 clones the only hooded nib design in current production? Even the modern Aurora 88 only trades on the name of its illustrious hooded ancestor.

 

My theories:

 

1. Modern pens are primarily status symbols, and secondly nostalgia pieces. A visible piece of (preferably gold coloured) metal is a large part of their appeal in either role - writing quality is secondary.

 

2. More optimistically, improved feed design and better inks make hooding less desirable than it used to be. It's still a good thing, but pens can manage much better without it than they could in say, 1955.

 

3. Hooded designs have higher manufacturing costs and can't role off a standard production line.

 

4. The inlaid nib provides many of the benefits of hooded nib while providing more visible bling, so "technical" pens like the Pilot Falcon and Waterman Edson that might have been candidates for hooding have gone this route instead.

 

But I'd put my money on 1. as the dominating factor.

 

 

You're wrong about the Lamy and Parker 51 clones being the only hooded nib pens in production. You forgot about the Parker 100, which also has a hooded nib.

 

Your theories have some value, though I do not agree at all that 'writing quality is secondary' with modern pens, as you claim. The 'bling' factor is only true in the case of expensive high-end pens like the Montblanc Solitaire etc. And even then the pen still needs to perform well, otherwise the reputation of the brand would be fatally compromised.

I also strongly disagree that hooded nib (or inlaid nib) pens make better writers - there is no evidence at all for this claim, and in my extensive experience using fountain pens I have not found this to be true. I actually strongly dislike hooded nibs, because the hood hides the nib and I would say it's a bit like having a car with an engine you can never see. The nib is the 'engine' of the pen, and I like to be able to see it, to spot marks and blemishes and other issues that might be hidden by the hood.

Inlaid nibs are OK, though they naturally tend to be very stiff, so it's a matter of personal preference.

 

 

 

 

 

[meanwhile]

You're wrong about the Lamy and Parker 51 clones being the only hooded nib pens in production. You forgot about the Parker 100, which also has a hooded nib.

 

I thought the 100 had ceased production? Ok... it's still on their website.

 

Your theories have some value, though I do not agree at all that 'writing quality is secondary' with modern pens, as you claim. The 'bling' factor is only true in the case of expensive high-end pens like the Montblanc Solitaire etc. And even then the pen still needs to perform well, otherwise the reputation of the brand would be fatally compromised.

 

M'r -MB sell pens that shatter while stored in bank vaults and their brand is fine. Product quality and branding are two different things.

 

I also strongly disagree that hooded nib (or inlaid nib) pens make better writers - there is no evidence at all for this claim,

 

No one said that hooded nibs write better - unless your definition of writing better includes a slower drying out time, more efficient use of ink, and less problems with oxidation prone inks. And there's lot of evidence for all of these things.

 

I actually strongly dislike hooded nibs, because the hood hides the nib and I would say it's a bit like having a car with an engine you can never see. The nib is the 'engine' of the pen, and I like to be able to see it, to spot marks and blemishes and other issues that might be hidden by the hood.

 

Personally I drive with the hood down... isn't it an advantage to have the valuable, delicate nib protected by a hood?

 

Inlaid nibs are OK, though they naturally tend to be very stiff, so it's a matter of personal preference.

 

The Namiki Falcon has an inlaid nib and its the softest -actually flexible -pen made today, I believe. I think the stiffness thing is just the house style of Sheaffer.

[Lloyd]

MB sell pens that shatter while stored in bank vaults and their brand is fine. Product quality and branding are two different things.,

Out of all the gazillions of 149's sold, what percentage of them have spontaneously shattered in a bank vault?

The Namiki Falcon has an inlaid nib and its the softest -actually flexible -pen made today, I believe. I think the stiffness thing is just the house style of Sheaffer.

I found the Falcon to be very stiff. It was quite adept at flexion but it took a lot of effort. The 743 FA nib and the Emoticon are WAY softer.

I believe Richard B. states that the 'P51' can not be made flexible due to its hood.

 

[meanwhile]

MB sell pens that shatter while stored in bank vaults and their brand is fine. Product quality and branding are two different things.,

Out of all the gazillions of 149's sold, what percentage of them have spontaneously shattered in a bank vault?

 

I'm sorry, I was using humour.

 

Very few 149's have shattered in bank vaults: this is inevitable as very few are kept in them.

 

But 149's are notoriously more fragile than most pens, and this doesn't seem to have hurt their brand at all.

 

The Namiki Falcon has an inlaid nib and its the softest -actually flexible -pen made today, I believe. I think the stiffness thing is just the house style of Sheaffer.

I found the Falcon to be very stiff. It was quite adept at flexion but it took a lot of effort. The 743 FA nib and the Emoticon are WAY softer.

 

That's a good point.

 

I believe Richard B. states that the 'P51' can not be made flexible due to its hood.

 

Yes, I can't see how a true hooded pen could be made flexible.

[Lloyd]

Isn't it also one of the Noodlers that people says smells weird?

I thought that was NT?

[meanwhile]

Isn't it also one of the Noodlers that people says smells weird?

I thought that was NT?

 

No, it's definitely TE Lawrence.

 

Mind you, I'd expect you'll be whiffy too when you've been dead as long as he is...

[Dan Carmell]

<snip>

That isn't to say that we, as fountain pen users and collectors don't have status symbols (i.e., Jules the Squid Pen).

<snip>

 

Ah, you need a better status symbol than that! It ain't a status symbol unless it can be recognized. Really, there is only one marque in the pen world that is a status symbol and that's Montblanc.

 

Dan

Edited June 14, 2007 by Dan Carmell

[aunt rebecca]

hi,

 

i agree with dan-- come on "precious resin" :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd: :ltcapd:

[sleek_lover]

Mark..

I feelt the comment about hooded nibbed pens being inferior performers to trad nibs is preceptional. I probably have as much experience as you and have a great deal with SLEEK nibbed pens...inlaided and conical as well as hooded/semi-hooded and I find their performance every bit equal and in many ways superior to the TRAD nibbed pens. But then, I have a and admit to a bias for SLEEK pens as opposed to TRAD pens.

 

Bu then then, that is why Baskin Robins stays in business, ain't it...?

 

Bill

[mschaffer]

[...]

You left one out. Some of us don't like the looks of a hooded nib. I have three Parker 21s and they just don't sing to me; something wrong with the proportions. They write well, they feel good in my hand and they are well-behaved if I perform their storage ritual properly, but I can't stand the sight of 'em.

 

Paddler

 

While I do not doubt that Paddler is correct in asserting that some people do not like the aesthetics of a hooded nib, I doubt that this is a major factor, alone. After all, how many really ugly, "only a mother would like it's appearance" pens are for sale out there? Plenty!

There seems to be many pens in every flavor, so why not the hooded nib flavor?

Probably because you cannot make it so flashy/blingy/tacky if you cover one of the most easily plated parts of the pen.

Besides, how else can you justify the plethora of relatively crappy, plated nibs that are just not up to the task of the pens from the 1950's, or earlier.

 

I say this as I am looking a Sheaffer Legacy 2 nib and wonder how it will be holding up in 2057. However, my workhorse pens---Sheaffer Snorkel pens with the Triumph nibs---have held up quite well (one is a hand-me-down and I know that it has been in almost continuous use since it was new) and I do not doubt that they could go another 50 years. Thus, I believe that the original poster's assertion #1 is probably valid. The marketing of fountain pens have moved from necessary tool (form follows function) to some piece of bling that can have an occasional use (it's all form).

[MYU]

Interesting discussion, teasing a little outside the lines of civility.

 

I agree with Meanwhile's point--the uncapped nib will take longer to dry out if it is hooded. So, if you're one of those people who has long moments of thought between words on paper, you don't want to be kick starting the nib on the margins each time you resume writing.

 

The only thing that hooded and semi-hooded nibs seem to lack is flex (at least, in my experience). Otherwise, they can be just as good writers as non-hooded nibs.

 

As for aesthetics, that's purely a personal preference thing. I certainly understand a person thinking that a Parker 51 is weird/ugly, because it looks nib-less. Yet, that's colored with the expectation of a traditional fountain pen. I like the sleek, Mustang P51 look of the Parker 51. And Lamy came up with an attractive design as well.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t154/MYU701/pens/Lamy/27/Lamy27_nibcurve-t.jpg

[Ged]

People, people, lets keep it civil. What I say is whats right!

 

Kidding.

 

Preference an perception I think. I know if I use a 51 in front of other people, they won't really catch on to its true nature as quickly as if I was using an open nib pen. I once gave my lab partner my Pilot 78G for a second to write a quick note. He looked at it, with its gold plated steel nib and gold painted cap rings as balked... he said he didn't want to use and possibly ruin an expensive pen of mine I bought that pen for US$18. He's seen my P51 but I'm pretty sure he thinks the 78G still costs more than the P51

 

Personally I like the look of a P51 and of the Lamy 27 and the P100! When I got my P51, it just felt *right* for weight and size. Perhaps owing to doing calligraphy where you have to keep the nib at a set angle, I didn't have any orientation issues. Perhaps its telling that after I got my 51 I stopped looking for other pens (at least for awhile ). I love the look of it too, the torpedo and frosted cap does it for me! The fact that it does take longer to dry out if a bonus, as I often need to look up a particular formula or read something a few times to make sure I understand it before making a note of it. My Esties and Challenger don't like it when I do that and leave the pen uncapped.

 

On the other hand, if I paid say $300+ for a pen, I *want* a big chunk of gold at the end telling me, this is what you paid for baby!

 

Actually even that might not be true... I like the look of a Lamy 2000 alot. I'm so confuzzled.

[BrianTung]

While I do not doubt that Paddler is correct in asserting that some people do not like the aesthetics of a hooded nib, I doubt that this is a major factor, alone. After all, how many really ugly, "only a mother would like it's appearance" pens are for sale out there? Plenty!

There seems to be many pens in every flavor, so why not the hooded nib flavor?

 

I am also one who doesn't like the hooded/semi-hooded nibs principally on aesthetics, which is why Ghost Plane's Carenes are safe from my hands, at least.

 

But aside from aesthetic valuation, it's also that hooded/semi-hooded nibs don't fit what many people think a fountain pen should look like. In the amateur astronomy world, cheap crappy refractors are sold by the truckloads each year precisely because they fit the stereotype of what telescopes should look like, despite the fact that vastly superior reflectors (the Parker 51's of the telescope world) are available for the same prices or less. Of course, there's nothing inherently crappy about non-hooded nibs; I wouldn't like them, otherwise, good looks or bad.

[meanwhile]

The only thing that hooded and semi-hooded nibs seem to lack is flex (at least, in my experience). Otherwise, they can be just as good writers as non-hooded nibs.

 

Some Aurora 88's are said to be flexy - see the notes I added to your excellent Lamy 27 review.

 

 

[meanwhile]

I once gave my lab partner my Pilot 78G for a second to write a quick note. He looked at it, with its gold plated steel nib and gold painted cap rings as balked... he said he didn't want to use and possibly ruin an expensive pen of mine I bought that pen for US$18. He's seen my P51 but I'm pretty sure he thinks the 78G still costs more than the P51

 

Perhaps its's this simple: hooded nibs don't brand well as fountain pens?

 

When I got my P51, it just felt *right* for weight and size. Perhaps owing to doing calligraphy where you have to keep the nib at a set angle, I didn't have any orientation issues.

 

I certainly don't think there are orientation problems writing with a round tip 51. I understand that people have had some problems with cursive italics.

 

The fact that it does take longer to dry out if a bonus, as I often need to look up a particular formula or read something a few times to make sure I understand it before making a note of it. My Esties and Challenger don't like it when I do that and leave the pen uncapped.

 

Exactly. For some of us this sort of thing really matters.

 

Actually even that might not be true... I like the look of a Lamy 2000 alot. I'm so confuzzled.

 

The 2000 is in many ways a great pen. I'd buy one in a shot if it wasn't the cap retaining pins sticking in my grip - although I'd reckon the possiblity of some trouble before finding a good one, if what I hear about the mixed quality of current pens is true.

Edited June 14, 2007 by meanwhile

[superfly]

The only reason why hooded nibs are not more in production is that the need for hooding the nib disappeared along with the superfast-drying but highly corrosive “51” ink.

 

Nowadays, fountain pens are usually associated with the status of the user, so a big flashy piece of metal is desired...

 

Nenad

[meanwhile]

The only reason why hooded nibs are not more in production is that the need for hooding the nib disappeared along with the superfast-drying but highly corrosive “51” ink.

 

We've already been through this one:

 

The original inspirationion for hooded nibs was the 51 ink, but the reason that hooding worked for this was it reduced evaporation and oxidation. This has other advantages too: read the thread.

 

[Ink Stained Wretch]

2. More optimistically, improved feed design and better inks make hooding less desireable than it used to be. It's still a good thing, but pens can manage much better without it than they could in say, 1955.

Hooded nibs came into being as a specific and necessary result of the existence of a super fast-drying ink that Parker developed in the 1930s. It dried so fast that it would dry out in an open nib/feed arrangement while the pen was in use. The ink, and the pen that Parker invented to solve the dryout problem, became the "51".

Wow, I hadn't known that about the "51". Thanks for the techno-history lesson.

 

I first saw a "51" when I was a small child. It seemed very strange to me. I'd seen fountain pens, but they were usually of the lowest cost sort, and all the fountain pens I'd ever seen had visible nibs. At first I thought that the "51" was broken somehow. They were also in use by people who were in power, at least to a small child, and so they became a sort of sign of something (someone) to be fearful of.

 

Only relatively recently have I begun to appreciate the "51" and think that I might like to try using one some day. I do have a dead "51" that someone gave me. I might consider getting it fixed, once I win the LOTTO :roflmho: .