Looking for a smooth fine nib, help me decide

[Eastward313]

Well, I'm playing the "too much of this," "too little of that" game in a search for an FP. My Sailor 1911M medium is perfect except for that it writes a little wide for my tastes and has a blingy navy body and gold trim. My Pelikan M200 with Binder XXF nib is perfect except that it's a little small and the nib leaves much to be desired in the smoothness department.

 

My preferences (in order of importance):

• Smooth - buttery smooth, glassy smooth, definition of smooth, whatever. I don't want a typical dry, scratchy EF. I don't want any pleasant "feedback" or tooth at all. My Sailor 1911M medium comes closest to this. In fact, a fine nib as smooth as the 1911M would be perfect.
• Fine line - I'm thinking about .4mm. Let me try to explain: a little wider than a Binder Pelikan XXF (.3mm). More narrow than my 1911M medium (.5mm). A tad narrower than a Lamy Safari XF. Narrower than a Lamy 2000 XF.
  • Silver trim - Gold just screams "bling" to me, and a silver clip can go with more items in my wardrobe than can a gold one. Silver trim is bordering on essential for me.
  • $200 or so - obviously, the less $$$, the more desirable, but if spending considerably more than $200 will give proportionate increases in performance (meaning that a $300 pen will be quite literally 50% better than a $200 one), I'm ready to purchase![/b]
  • M600 size, light - I am used to smaller pens (M200, 1911M) since I haven't found any large pens around my previous price point (<$100). I once had a Conklin glider, and that felt a bit too big for me. I can make do with an M200 size but would prefer something a bit larger.
  • Flat ends instead of torpedo. I'd take the PG over 1911. This is merely a preference and not really a deal breaker.
  • Stiffer nib rather than flexible nib - I'd love some flex, but I tend to overdo it at times and misalign the tines, so I'd prefer a more rigid nib that won't be deformed as easily.
  • Black color, although I'd be open to other classy looking colors (like navy w/silver), but no bright yellow 1911M, please!

Well, is that enough? I'm considering these pens (in order of consideration):

• Sailor Professional Gear F - how is the line width on the F nib, or the smoothness on the EF nib??
• Sailor Sapporo F or EF - this looks surprising, since it's priced lower than the rest but could well be a match for me. However, I have heard that the F is like a western F (is that true?), and I can't find anywhere to buy one with an F nib. Again, I am concerned about EF scratchiness if the F ends up being too wide.
• Sailor 1911 F - how wide is the F? Is the EF scratchy (like many other extra fine nibs)?
• Pilot Custom 823 F - I have heard rave reviews about this pen, but gold trim and filling system's potential for failure (maybe) are negatives. C/C is fine for me (although my absolute favorite is piston filler!). Also, I haven't heard anything about the F nib - it seems like everyone comments about the M and B (as you can tell, I am a stickler for smoothness who also likes fine lines but hasn't found both in a pen yet).
• Namiki Falcon, although I only hear about semiflex and not about smoothness
• Danitrio Densho Raw Ebonite, although I only hear about how good a value it is and nothing about the nib.
• more than open to other recommendations

And, well, if smoothness and fineness are mutually exclusive terms (a thought in the back of my head), I'm ready to face reality.

 

Your replies are very much appreciated!!

David Migl

Edited June 7, 2007 by davidmigl

[meanwhile]

Wait - a Binder XXF is 0.3mm???

 

That's a disappointment - I'd always imagined it as being quite exotic, whereas it's, what, a Medium-Fine for a Japanese pen?

 

Regarding your parameters, I'd buy any damn pen you like that's the right shape and then send it off to a nibmesiter to be customized. If RB's list is too long, then Deb Kinney does superb work and her list is much shorter.

 

Given your parameters:

 

- A Pilot 78G F nib might be an exact fit for you, and it's terrifc value for money.

 

- You could send your 1911M to Deb to have the nib fined down, or buy another one in MF.

 

- $200 could buy a gorgeous restored Parker 51 or Sheaffer Snorkel Triumph, meistered to your exact tastes. Ok, you like CC fillers, but an aero 51 is at least as reliable.

 

- You could buy an M600 off Richard Binder, with the exact nib specification you like. But this seems so obvious that there must be a reason you've not mentioned it?

 

- From what you say about "overdoing it" at times, forget the Falcon. But maybe do consider a NOS Targa F nibe from ebay.

 

Re. the 823's filler: similar fillers built with 1930's technology and material operated flawlessly for decades - they just don't manage to go as long as lever and aero fills without repair. The 823's filler is built by one of the world's few remaining real engineering companies in the pen business using the latest and most suitable materials, a Japanese company who only issued the pen because they were confident that they had come up with a big improvement over the previous good-enough system. Plus the safety valve should mean that it's safer than most fillers. As far as I can tell, this FUD was started by some Montblanc lover who was narked that pen keep mentioning that 149's are notorious for exploding. Ok, ok - they just spontaneously shatter: it's not quite the same thing.

 

Seriously: an 823 is probably one of the least likely pens to leak in your pocket, if that's what you're worried about. I'd send a sample of your writing with that ideal RB nib to Stan at Cyberpens and ask him which 823 nib is the best match, and maybe ask him to do a dip test and write back.

Edited June 6, 2007 by meanwhile

[Penache]

My Sailor Sapporo Mini has an EF nib and is incredibly smooth. It is a wetter writer than I expected but still writes sufficiently fine and I don't think you would be disappointed. The rhodium trim looks very classy. I would highly recommend it in either mini or regular size.

[Lloyd]

Buy the Pelikan M605 (Blue with silver trim) from Oscar Braun Pens for $125 including shipping. Then, send it to Deb Kinney to make it an ultra-smooth XF nib. It should total to less than $200.

[Eastward313]

@meanwhile: thanks for your bold, unrelenting dismantling of FUD that I had heard but, of course, had no experience to back up (I guess this most concerns the 823). It must be especially frustrating to hear such things about pens you own and love.

 

Yes the 600 seems obvious, but this is why I didn't mention it: I've had a Pelikan M200 F that I thought was smooth until a Sailor 1911M medium came my way, and then it felt rather toothy. The XXF nib is also rather toothy. And, the 600 is a western pen, meaning that the nibs run wider. So, I've grown a bit uneasy with Pelikans and am tending to gravitate toward Japanese pens since their nibs run smaller and brands like Sailor and Pilot are constantly praised for their smoothness.

 

Thanks to everyone else for your flurry of diverse recommendations of pens and nibmeisters. It's becoming more and more apparent that I need to bite the bullet and put a pen in a months-long nibmeister's queue if I want it superb (BTW, you mentioned Kinney's queue is shorter than some others, how long is that? 2 months or so?)

 

And, your replies are greatly appreciated!!

[Escribiente]

My preferences (in order of importance):

• Smooth - buttery smooth, glassy smooth, definition of smooth, whatever. I don't want a typical dry, scratchy EF. I don't want any pleasant "feedback" or tooth at all. My Sailor 1911M medium comes closest to this. In fact, a fine nib as smooth as the 1911M would be perfect.
• Fine line - I'm thinking about .4mm. Let me try to explain: a little wider than a Binder Pelikan XXF (.3mm). More narrow than my 1911M medium (.5mm). A tad narrower than a Lamy Safari XF. Narrower than a Lamy 2000 XF.
• Rhodium trim - gold just screams "bling" to me, and a silver clip can go with more items in my wardrobe than can a gold one. Silver trim is bordering on essential for me.
• $200 or so - obviously, the less $$$, the more desirable, but if spending considerably more than $200 will give proportionate increases in performance (meaning that a $300 pen will be quite literally 50% better than a $200 one), I'm ready to purchase![/b]
• M600 size, light - I am used to smaller pens (M200, 1911M) since I haven't found any large pens around my previous price point (<$100). I once had a Conklin glider, and that felt a bit too big for me. I can make do with an M200 size but would prefer something a bit larger.
• Flat ends instead of torpedo. I'd take the PG over 1911. This is merely a preference and not really a deal breaker.
• Stiffer nib rather than flexible nib - I'd love some flex, but I tend to overdo it at times and misalign the tines, so I'd prefer a more rigid nib that won't be deformed as easily.
• Black color, although I'd be open to other classy looking colors (like navy w/silver), but no bright yellow 1911M, please!

David,

You don't have it in your list, but you may want to consider the Marlen Basilea Black with an Extra Fine nib. I have one, and this is how it fares considering your requirements:

• Smooth - very smooth.
• Fine line - the Extra Fine is a tad bellow 0.4 mm, and very close to Sailor's EF.
• Rhodium trim - not rhodium but sterling silver that will never brass, and will age gracefuly.
• $200 or so - around $189 on e-bay.
• M600 size, light - it's abour the M600 size, and just a tad heavier, but it's not a heavy pen at all.
• Flat ends - check, both ends.
• Stiffer nib rather than flexible nib - stiff nib.
• Black color - it has a tad of red, but it looks extremely classy, yet it has enough life to go with any informal attire.
• It this is not enough, the Basilea is also a piston filler.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted. Edited June 7, 2007 by Escribiente

[TMLee]

the pen that fits all yr parameters is quite clearly the Sailor PG <F> in silver trim. Yes buttery smooth . U can buy from eBayer 'Engeika' . email him direct and buy direct from him rather than go thru the bidding. U will also have some $leftover.

[Mike S.]

I second the vote for a Sailor 1911 or Professional Gear with a M-F (or is it F-M?) nib. The Sailor fine is really fine and a bit scratchy (like you, I'm also a smoothness fanatic) -- if you like the smoothness of the medium but find it "a little wide," the fine will likely be too narrow and scratchy for you. The F-M could well be perfect. Of course, you won't know until you try.

 

I would also suggest buying your Sailor from John Mottishaw at www.nibs.com and asking him to set it up for maximum smoothness and an inkflow between 6 and 7 (on a scale of 1 to 10). If you're really into smoothness, try a Mottishawed pen with Aurora ink on Clairefontaine paper. It will be very hard to beat. If you buy the pen from John he will set it up for you without having to wait in his queue -- usually, if you order it before like 3 pm, he will ship it out the same day -- and as long as you're not having the nib customized, it won't even cost you extra. If you're really picky about smoothness, it's worth it to have John set up the pen for you (he'll align the tines under his microscope and smooth and polish the tipping). I think he's got the 1911s at right around $200 now, and the PG's are a bit more. I don't know if you can get a F-M nib for a Sapporo, but he might be able to grind a medium down for you.

 

Good luck!

[meanwhile]

@meanwhile: thanks for your bold, unrelenting dismantling of FUD that I had heard but, of course, had no experience to back up (I guess this most concerns the 823). It must be especially frustrating to hear such things about pens you own and love.

 

Actually, the 823 is top of my moderns want list (fighting it out with its sibs the Falcon and Raden VP).

 

But I do have several pens about half a century old that use earlier versions of the filling system, and experience of how perfectionist Japanese engineers are...

 

Yes the 600 seems obvious, but this is why I didn't mention it: I've had a Pelikan M200 F that I thought was smooth until a Sailor 1911M medium came my way, and then it felt rather toothy. The XXF nib is also rather toothy. And, the 600 is a western pen, meaning that the nibs run wider. So, I've grown a bit uneasy with Pelikans and am tending to gravitate toward Japanese pens since their nibs run smaller and brands like Sailor and Pilot are constantly praised for their smoothness.

 

None of this should matter if you have the pen meistered, I suspect.

 

Thanks to everyone else for your flurry of diverse recommendations of pens and nibmeisters. It's becoming more and more apparent that I need to bite the bullet and put a pen in a months-long nibmeister's queue if I want it superb (BTW, you mentioned Kinney's queue is shorter than some others, how long is that? 2 months or so?)

 

Deb Kinney can usually still meister a pen in less than a month. All the experiences I know of have - including my own - have been very positive.

 

[Eastward313]

I second the vote for a Sailor 1911 or Professional Gear with a M-F (or is it F-M?) nib. The Sailor fine is really fine and a bit scratchy (like you, I'm also a smoothness fanatic) -- if you like the smoothness of the medium but find it "a little wide," the fine will likely be too narrow and scratchy for you. The F-M could well be perfect. Of course, you won't know until you try.

 

Do you know where I could get an F/M nib? I can't find them anywhere (Mottishaw doesn't have it listed on his site, either).

 

Thanks for your reply!!

 

[irish_monk]

I have a 1911 in fine and a Sapporo in fine. They write like an xf and are as smooth as silk. Sailor nibs spoiled me. Others just can't measure up. The sappor posts a little smaller than an M200 (which I also use frequently) I have the rhodium trim and the section is really light. I don't know if the gold version has a brass section and thus more weight which I would prefer. I got mine from Pam Braun, 95 bucks plus shipping. Not too shabby for a 14k nib that is super smooth and reliable. I can't imagine a Sailor needing work from a meister.

Edited June 7, 2007 by irish_monk

[sleek_lover]

Parker 51 F or XF...a primo model will set you back the requiste $200.

 

In case nobody has got it yet, for the most part, Parker 51 is THE ANSWER to most every pen question. The only one I can think of is an all black pen, and there are sufficient Sheafs to cover that.

 

Bill...

[Mike S.]

I second the vote for a Sailor 1911 or Professional Gear with a M-F (or is it F-M?) nib. The Sailor fine is really fine and a bit scratchy (like you, I'm also a smoothness fanatic) -- if you like the smoothness of the medium but find it "a little wide," the fine will likely be too narrow and scratchy for you. The F-M could well be perfect. Of course, you won't know until you try.

 

Do you know where I could get an F/M nib? I can't find them anywhere (Mottishaw doesn't have it listed on his site, either).

 

Thanks for your reply!!

 

If John doesn't have one, he can probably get one. I guess I would just call and ask. If not, the Japanese internet seller ujuku carries a Sailor Profit with a 21k nib for $133 and change plus shipping and lists a "finemedium" as an option.

 

ujuku.jpn.ph/sailor

 

On his Pilot page, he also shows the Pilot Custom 743 model with a FM nib:

 

ujuku.jpn.ph/pilot

 

I bought my Pilot Decimo from him and it was a very good experience. It took him a couple of days to e-mail me that he had received my order, but I assume it's a one-man-show.

 

Another idea that just occurred to me would be to get a Nakaya Piccolo in the black urushi configuration with a medium fine nib and tell them you'd like it set up for maximum smoothness. These are around $250 -- a bit more if you buy a converter -- plus shipping, but they are extremely well-made with great flow. I think they're also pretty cool looking pens. It sounds like you don't mind a smaller pen. The pens are made of ebonite (hard rubber) coated with lacquer and have a wonderful, warm feel in the hand and just the right weight. Because they're made to order, it's probably a 6-week wait, but I bet you'd love the pen.

 

http://www.nakaya.org/piccolo/7-3.jpg

 

http://www.nakaya.org/piccolo/6-3.jpg

 

Here's a link to the website:

 

www.nakaya.org

 

Here's a link to the page showing their nib selections:

 

Nakaya nib selections

Edited June 7, 2007 by Mike S.

[thw]

Hello David,

With the amount you are willing to pay, you can potentially buy three Sailor Sapporo(or one Pilot Custom 74 with a 1911M with small change), if you shop around. The Sailor Sapporo has the same nib as the 1911M. It is a small pen though but the 1911M is not that much bigger. I have three Sailor in EF and about to order my fourth with XXF.

 

Mike made a very good suggestion about the Nakaya. For the 'extra' amount (US50-70) on a Black cigar Piccolo, the quality you can get in return is definitely worth it. Unfortunately the two tone nib will cost US80.00 extra.

 

Happy pen shopping!

[marklavar]

Well, I'm playing the "too much of this," "too little of that" game in a search for an FP. My Sailor 1911M medium is perfect except for that it writes a little wide for my tastes and has a blingy navy body and gold trim. My Pelikan M200 with Binder XXF nib is perfect except that it's a little small and the nib leaves much to be desired in the smoothness department.

 

My preferences (in order of importance):

• Smooth - buttery smooth, glassy smooth, definition of smooth, whatever. I don't want a typical dry, scratchy EF. I don't want any pleasant "feedback" or tooth at all. My Sailor 1911M medium comes closest to this. In fact, a fine nib as smooth as the 1911M would be perfect.
• Fine line - I'm thinking about .4mm. Let me try to explain: a little wider than a Binder Pelikan XXF (.3mm). More narrow than my 1911M medium (.5mm). A tad narrower than a Lamy Safari XF. Narrower than a Lamy 2000 XF.
  • Silver trim - Gold just screams "bling" to me, and a silver clip can go with more items in my wardrobe than can a gold one. Silver trim is bordering on essential for me.
  • $200 or so - obviously, the less $$$, the more desirable, but if spending considerably more than $200 will give proportionate increases in performance (meaning that a $300 pen will be quite literally 50% better than a $200 one), I'm ready to purchase![/b]
  • M600 size, light - I am used to smaller pens (M200, 1911M) since I haven't found any large pens around my previous price point (<$100). I once had a Conklin glider, and that felt a bit too big for me. I can make do with an M200 size but would prefer something a bit larger.
  • Flat ends instead of torpedo. I'd take the PG over 1911. This is merely a preference and not really a deal breaker.
  • Stiffer nib rather than flexible nib - I'd love some flex, but I tend to overdo it at times and misalign the tines, so I'd prefer a more rigid nib that won't be deformed as easily.
  • Black color, although I'd be open to other classy looking colors (like navy w/silver), but no bright yellow 1911M, please!

Well, is that enough? I'm considering these pens (in order of consideration):

• Sailor Professional Gear F - how is the line width on the F nib, or the smoothness on the EF nib??
• Sailor Sapporo F or EF - this looks surprising, since it's priced lower than the rest but could well be a match for me. However, I have heard that the F is like a western F (is that true?), and I can't find anywhere to buy one with an F nib. Again, I am concerned about EF scratchiness if the F ends up being too wide.
• Sailor 1911 F - how wide is the F? Is the EF scratchy (like many other extra fine nibs)?
• Pilot Custom 823 F - I have heard rave reviews about this pen, but gold trim and filling system's potential for failure (maybe) are negatives. C/C is fine for me (although my absolute favorite is piston filler!). Also, I haven't heard anything about the F nib - it seems like everyone comments about the M and B (as you can tell, I am a stickler for smoothness who also likes fine lines but hasn't found both in a pen yet).
• Namiki Falcon, although I only hear about semiflex and not about smoothness
• Danitrio Densho Raw Ebonite, although I only hear about how good a value it is and nothing about the nib.
• more than open to other recommendations

And, well, if smoothness and fineness are mutually exclusive terms (a thought in the back of my head), I'm ready to face reality.

 

Your replies are very much appreciated!!

David Migl

 

 

Japanese F nibs are more like Western XF nibs. I recommend Italian F nibs, especially Omas, Stipula, Delta and Visconti. Not Aurora, which is quite scratchy.

 

[scribbler]

I'll chime in as I have both a rhodium-trim Sailor PG [F] *and* and screaming yellow Sailor m1911 [F].

 

My preferences (in order of importance):

 

* Smooth - buttery smooth, glassy smooth, definition of smooth, whatever. I don't want a typical dry, scratchy EF. I don't want any pleasant "feedback" or tooth at all. My Sailor 1911M medium comes closest to this. In fact, a fine nib as smooth as the 1911M would be perfect.

 

PG fine:

*smooth out of the box. No scratchiness, and ink flows well even with a no-pressure writing hand. *line width should be very much within your parameters. It's a fine but wet line.

*silver trim available

*under price limit

*light, but I don't own an m600; it is a touch longer than an m400, capped.

 

For PG vs m1911:

-capped, the m1911 is about a cm (less than half an inch) longer than the PG

-uncapped, the m1911 is a couple of mm longer than the PG

-cap posted, the PG is one or two mm longer than the m1911

 

The PG feels heavier than the m1911 but in my hand, the PG feels better, with the balance centered so it's easy to write with, and no "tail" lag (!). There's a solidness to the PG, in contrast to the light, cheap plastic body of the m1911.

 

*flat ends

*firm nib; no misaligning tines accidentally here

*comes in black, black, and...black.

 

m1911 fine:

*scratchy out of box, smoothed out a bit with Noodler's Lux Blue

*nice thin line, but a hair thicker than the PG's [fine] line

*gold trim only

*under price limit; cheaper than PG

*cigar/torpedo ends

*thinner, more flexy-feeling nib/nib unit than the PG

*lots of colors, only gold trim

 

* Sailor Professional Gear F - how is the line width on the F nib, or the smoothness on the EF nib??

* Sailor 1911 F - how wide is the F? Is the EF scratchy (like many other extra fine nibs)?

 

The PG fine is quite fine enough for me, and maybe only the Pilot 78g F (in reality an EF) is a tad finer in my collection. I'm not interested in getting any finer; PG, m1911, or Pilot 78G will be great with the thinnest moleskine paper, and that's all I need. The PG fine is hands down the smoothest nib I own (topping my beloved Lamy 2000s), and it's a fine. Out of the box. That is some QC.

 

Sailor m1911 F - Not gonna measure it, but even using the same ink (I made a sample with different inks), the m1911 fine lays down a slightly thicker line, noticeable only to the very anal, I'm sure. Mine has a little scratchiness, so I'll be sending it to a nibmr for a tweaking.

 

HTH, and feel free to ask for more info or clarification.

[Shimon]

Hi. I had a pelikan M400 F (too wide). Now I have a sparro F (perfect but I think you will find it too small and a bit toothy).

I would recommend a pelikan EF.