Does A 30X Loupe Really Help To See What's Making A Nib Less Smooth?

[lurcho]

I'm actually looking at a number of options for going beyond my excellent 10X loupes (one's a Belomo). Little loupe-like microscopes, microscopes that attach to mobile phones, and so on. (I'm looking a very good British optical retailer called Quicktest, which is very honest and informative about the stuff it sells.)

 

I've had success and failure smoothing nibs, but I can't quite see any diffrence between my 'perfectly' smooth nibs (about two), and the 'very good' others.

 

Just wondering if a 30X makes a significant difference compared to 10X, given the much-increased fiddliness of using such a powerful lens.

 

Thanks.

[praxim]

My most powerful loupe is 20X. I have no inclination to get a 30X owing to the resulting reduced field of view and focal length. I would be more inclined to switch to a USB loupe at that point, despite the other problems I think that entails (mainly, space and clumsiness for setup). As a caveat on my comments, your interest in and attention to nib working may be greater than mine.

[lurcho]

Thanks for that.

 

How clearly can you see the surface of the 'iridium' point at 20X, if you don't mind my asking?

[praxim]

Define "clearly" . OK, here is what I did and what I found. I examined pens which were new (S T Dupont, used only once), over 40 years old (S T Dupont) and about 90 years (Onoto). To do this I used a 10X Belomo, as you have, and a 20X Edmund Optics.

 

Iridium on the new Dupont was utterly smooth at both magnifications. On the older Dupont I could see marks and pits at 20X with not much clue to their existence with the 10X. On the Onoto (and a 70 year old one I quickly checked as well) I could see with 10X that there were glints indicative of marks on the iridium. Examination with the 20X let me trace or count the slight pits and scratches. I also had a quick look with 14X (B&L) to find that I could see the nature of the surface pretty much the same as with the 20X even though at lower magnification.

 

Three comments:

Firstly, all three of the first mentioned pens, from the aged 90 Onoto 3050 to the current S T Dupont Neo-classique, write very smoothly. There is no way I would bother trying to polish the marks. The loss of even a thin layer of iridium would entirely outweigh a theoretical change in smoothness, unless my aim were to display them under microscopes at some concours d'elegance des plumes. That is, 10X was a sound level for assessing tip smoothness and alignment. These pens each have a different weight and feel which is far more significant in distinguishing them than their nib tipping.

 

Secondly, at high magnifications, keeping everything steady enough to get a clear view is a thing. Preferably, the pen (or loupe) should be clamped rather than rested and certainly not free-handed for a detailed examination.

 

Thirdly, did you notice that the 14X B&L was closer to the 20X EO in clarity than to the 10X Belomo, both being 1.4x shifts in nominal magnification? I have written recently in a thread elsewhere that after careful comparison I have recognised that the Belomo, good as it is and fully worth it in my view, is not as excellent as either of the other two. If you are willing to pay at least twice the price of the Belomo then you can upgrade optical quality as well as magnification, albeit in a way that is rarely going to be observed.

 

HTH

P.

[lurcho]

Thanks, praxim.

 

I couldn't have asked for a more detailed and helpful response. It'll definitely inform my choice.

[ac12]

It is not just one thing, there are several things to look at:

• Profile/shape of the tipping.
  • Are there any edges on the tipping? If the tipping is worn, there might be a flat spot and an edge around the flat spot.
  • The tipping on some older nibs are not round, but could be different shapes. I've seen shapes such as: wedges, blocks, cylinders, etc.
• Are the two haves of the tipping aligned, at the angle that the pen is written at.
  • Looking at the nib head on, is not the angle that you write at. But this is what I've seen on the web.

Similar to Praxim, I found that older nibs with less than perfectly smooth tipping write just fine.

So don't fix what is not broken, you might break it trying to fix it.

 

I found that a 10x loupe is perfectly adequate.

I think I pulled out my 20x once, just to see what it looks like to use it. It hasn't come out since.

 

I use 2 different 10x loupes

• #1 Is an inexpensive Chinese triplet with an LED light. The LED light is critical as I don't have good lighting at my kitchen table workbench, or when I got to Pen Posse. This loupe gets used 96+% of the time.

• #2 Is a Belomo. I got it out of curiosity, to satisfy myself after reading all the posts about it. But it does NOT have a light, so has to be used where I have a good light source. Good optics is of no use, if there isn't enough light to see. This Belomo gets used less than 3% of the time.

If I really need to look at the details of a problem nib, I will pull out my stereo microscope, where I can go from 7x to 30x (with 10x eyepieces). The stereo view is much better than the loupe, and I can use both hands on the pen, so I am not working blind. But it is a hassle to setup, so the stereo microscope gets used less than 1% of the time.

Edited February 2, 2018 by ac12

[Carrau]

The 30x will be very hard to hold still, as any movement is also magnified. The field of view will also be significantly smaller, as will the focal length (meaning for you to view the nib, in focus, you will have a verrrry small range within which you can see the nib) . All this means it will be even harder to focus the 30x on the nib than it is to focus a10x. All the optics for every power of loupe available will improve if you can stabilize both the object (the nib) and the viewing lens. I tie Flyfishing flies, which requires the use of a special vise to hold the hook while tying, in conjunction with a desk mounted magnifying lens (5inch, 2.25x) that is surrounded with a ring of LED lights to provide extra illumination (maker Brightech). This makes tying the flies much easier, as there is no movement, and both hands are free. This magnification isnt sufficient for closely evaluations nibs. The idea though is useful, however, using a hobby vise to hold the nib unit/pen while viewing will help. If youre clever/resourceful enough to find a way to mount a loupe to a flexible desk lamp arm or some other pedestal or second vise, youll have both parts stable for improved viewing and work.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Herrjaeger

[lurcho]

Thanks for your input. It echoes closely the detailed email reply I had from Quicktest.

 

In fact, I think I should recommend this British optical company. You should have seen the long, detailed answer (over 500 words) I had from a guy called Raffi. I also like this outfit for the way they humorously diss some of their own offerings. They tell you exactly what you'll get if you choose their cheaper lenses, but also tell you that they offer 30X loupes (for example) that they strongly advise you not to buy.

 

I have no affiliation, but check them out, if you like:

 

www.quicktest.co.uk

[lurcho]

By the way, Herrjaeger, I've been experimenting with carving polystyrene boards to tightly hold both a barrel microscope with 45-55X magnification and a pen at an angle of about 130 degrees.

 

This seems to me to be a pretty good idea, but you still have a struggle to get the nib point exactly in the right place, which is no mean feat in any scenario, as you point out.

 

EDIT: I don't why I've used the term "barrel microscope". I'm referring to a pretty cheap (five pounds-ish) plastic thing which is a long cuboid, 14x2x2cms. The optics are advertised as very good, and they are. But it's fiddly as hell, and you need light.

Edited February 3, 2018 by lurcho

[Mike 59]

Hi, I have relied on a AGFA x8 loupe, and a triplet x15 for a few years, but I could see how more magnification might help sometimes.

I read about USB microscopes, but saw this plastic 'hobby' microscope in a shop.

Quality of the image is fine, more than I need, but holding the pen still while viewing is tricky, plus everyting in view is reversed.

There is a light which is powered by 2 (or 3) button cells.

I think this is great value for money, I will add some photos of the views through it later.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wow-Stuff-Science-Museum-Microscope/dp/B00L2DYXMU

Edited February 3, 2018 by Mike 59

[Carrau]

Thanks for your input. It echoes closely the detailed email reply I had from Quicktest.

 

In fact, I think I should recommend this British optical company. You should have seen the long, detailed answer (over 500 words) I had from a guy called Raffi. I also like this outfit for the way they humorously diss some of their own offerings. They tell you exactly what you'll get if you choose their cheaper lenses, but also tell you that they offer 30X loupes (for example) that they strongly advise you not to buy.

 

I have no affiliation, but check them out, if you like:

 

www.quicktest.co.uk

Thanks, lurcho.

[AL01]

I'm actually looking at a number of options for going beyond my excellent 10X loupes (one's a Belomo). Little loupe-like microscopes, microscopes that attach to mobile phones, and so on. (I'm looking a very good British optical retailer called Quicktest, which is very honest and informative about the stuff it sells.)

 

I've had success and failure smoothing nibs, but I can't quite see any diffrence between my 'perfectly' smooth nibs (about two), and the 'very good' others.

 

Just wondering if a 30X makes a significant difference compared to 10X, given the much-increased fiddliness of using such a powerful lens.

 

Thanks.[/quote/]

 

I'd you hold your 10X loop a little further away from the nib, then it becomes REALLY useful.

 

I have crappy eyes, and a 10X loop is good enough for me to adjust the tines on a Pilot Fine nib.

[Honeybadgers]

I ust a 30x/60x and I literally can't even tolerate the 30. personally, the 60 lets me see a lot more of the details.

 

a 10x is fine for alignment. And if you want more, a USB microscope is great for inspecting a polish.

[rwilsonedn]

Aside from magnification and usability, it's worth asking what you expect to learn from visual observation. In my very limited experience, a whole lot of variables go into the perception of smoothness. First, of course, is gross nib damage, like a broken tip, chip, or crack. Then comes tine alignment, and then the overall shape of the tip. I've sometimes found that after I align the tines on a pen and smooth the nib, the thing still feels scratchy because either a previous nib worker or wear over time has produced a flat foot with relatively sharp edges, and I was not holding the pen in an orientation that put the foot flat on the paper. All of these things are visible, I believe, at 10x or so, if you hold the pen and magnifier still long enough to absorb all that you are seeing and if you form a mental image of the shape of the tip.

But there seem to be other things as well--some sort of inherent tooth or friction in some materials on some papers. Maybe there are whiskers of tipping material left over from aggressive smoothing or grinding. You should be able to feel where they are by writing. Maybe the tooth is due to porosity, or to microcracks in the tipping. These might require much higher magnification to see. But then what? You can't polish a porous material to make it non-porous. You can only use lubricating inks, be very aware of how much pressure you are putting on the tip of the nib when writing, and maybe adjust the nib a bit wetter.For issues too fine to see at 10x, your best guide may be the feel of the nib on excellent paper, rather than visual inspection. If the nib feels smooth, you are done. If there is tooth, you can usually work out by changing the orientation of the pen and the direction of your stroke just what is going on, and where on the nib, assuming you understand the shape of the tip. Just my uninformed opinion, but I suspect a 10-15 power magnifier will do all you need for smoothing. Beyond that you may learn a lot about materials science, but you may not get a smoother nib.

ron

[lurcho]

Thanks, Ron. I think I agree with everything you say.

 

It is certainly rue that wetness plays a huge part in the perception of smoothness. Perhaps 50%. I only wish that I could increase flow enough in many of my pens. To me, that would the Holy Grail.

 

For what it's worth, I've ordered a 15X loupe from Quicktest, and that's the solution recommended by them. It was about £20, including postage, and they could've gone down the used-car-salesman route and suggested I pay a lot more.

 

I'll report back on my experience with this thing, if anyone's interested.

[Honeybadgers]

That's a rather expensive low-magnification loupe. I think 30 is kind of the minimum unless you have REALLY good eyes.

[woleizihan]

There is a big difference between 10x and 30x loupes. You see more details and it's more comfortable for eyes. Just try one and you'll know.

Edited February 9, 2018 by woleizihan

[praxim]

There are loupes sold as 30X which are not, as discussed on that site (see the examples). I am interested in links to these 30X loupes, with examples of their function, especially given my own experience (see above) of Hastings Triplets in the 7X to 20X range.

 

If at 14X I can see pitting which is irrelevant to nib smoothness, what is it you are trying to see at 30X? What is the focal length and depth of field?

 

eta:rwilsonedn put much of the case nicely.

Edited February 9, 2018 by praxim

[Jamerelbe]

I bought a 10x BelOmo loupe a couple of years back, and found that the magnification, depth of field and clarity of vision were all greater than the (supposedly) 30x cheap Chinese loupe that was already in my possession. So much so that the next loupe I purchased was a BelOmo 7. I wouldn't say no to a higher magnification loupe - but am satisfied that for most nib inspections that's about all you need!

[woleizihan]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure the 30x one I have is made in China and it's cheap. I compared it to the 10x loupe I got from Goulet, which is almost useless except for very very basic alignment. I have been suspicious about their magnification but never have a chance to make a comparison.