Why Aren't There Gold Dip Pen Nibs?

[Honeybadgers]

extremely old mabie todd vintage stuff where the nib is part of the pen aside, why aren't there gold dip pen nibs? They're more corrosion resistant, so they'd never need changing due to rust. They can be tipped and ground just as finely as any steel nib, and they have inherent softness that can be further expanded with the long tines and cutouts in many dip pen nibs.

 

Is it due to the fact that over years of use they could just stress fracture? I doubt it's just a cost thing. As long as people are willing to pay, the product is going to be made.

[Bo Bo Olson]

There were in the 1890's***....the 'Diamond' point was iridium....and iridium is from the asteroid that helped destroy the dinosaurs. It was strip mined in Italy, from the 2" thick layer there. Later before iridium and other rare earth combinations took over there was also iridium strip mining in Turkey.

 

Iridium....or any rare earth tipping is more expensive than gold.

 

***1894-5 Montgomery Ward catalog and the 1902 Sears show tipped gold dip pen nibs.

The well to do....soon had fountain pens....in 1902 Sears said Wirt made the best pens....ED.

Soon there was the Conklin....sack pen that took a dime to press the bar to fill it, then in 1912 Sheaffer came in with the lever pen.

One always has to be up to the minute with status items....so dip pens became then at home desk items where no one could see one was so old fashioned and out of style.

[sidthecat]

The gold pens with gold nibs seem to have been made for the individual, high-end market. Copyists and clerks would use steel pens in quantity, and quantity has a quality all its own.

The nibs are findable, mostly in the smaller sizes, and it’s worth a lot of lurking on eBay to find a nice one.

[johnboz]

I don't know if this is what you're asking about, but I found some gold-plated "R. R. Yates Corn-Belt Bank No 70" gold-plated dip pen nibs a while back. They're not nearly as flexible as some of the steel pens I've used, but it's so nice to not have to worry about corrosion when using them. Maybe I need to experiment with them a bit to try and make them more flexible?

 

I've attached an image (sorry for the crazy white-balance that makes it so blue-green).

 

http://fountainpenlove.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/IMG_5188-e1508901952405.jpg

Edited October 25, 2017 by johnboz

[Honeybadgers]

Plated is of no interest to me, I just have never seen a 14k, 18k, etc. "solid" gold dip pen nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well in the '80's gold hit $800 an ounce....in the 2000's three times that. Then there were the two war efforts....of give up your gold for the Front.

And today a solid gold nib is worth a 'two pack', and would be put in with the unstylish gold jewelry of grandma to be melted.

[kazoolaw]

You might look here:

 

https://www.vintagepens.com/catill_antique_writing_instruments.shtml

 

They are vintage, but appear to be gold, and the nibs can be removed from the holders.

 

gary

[Tweel]

I'd think there are at least two reasons: potential makers aren't aware of a realistic market for such a thing, and don't have a workforce to put in place to make them. The skills and knowledge seem to be long, long gone. I suppose if the market were enticing enough, they could start to dig through what historical accounts exist of gold pen manufacturing shops and what the workers were doing, and analyze the vintage pens and work on replicating what they find, but it doesn't seem likely...

Edited October 25, 2017 by Tweel

[Feanaaro]

It seems to me that the cost proposition is more than sufficient to explain the absence of modern gold dip nibs.

To make a quick and dirty calculation, a Hunt 101 nib weighs about 0.3 grams. Gold is about 2.4 times denser than steel (of course there is variation because both steel and the "gold" used in nibs are alloys), so a nib of the same shape made in gold would be about 0.7 grams. That means that just the gold weight of the nib would have a cost of about 28.7 dollars, at today's price. Add to that manufacture, distribution, profit, and such a nib would cost at least 60 dollars, assuming it could be mass produced, and probably much more (gold fountain pen nibs, which are not that dissimilar in weight, in fact cost upwards of 100$).

Nobody but some very bored Russian oligarch would pay that kind of money for a disposable nib, and it would have to be disposable in order to maintain the characteristics of sharpness and flexibility that makes a dip nib worth it over a fountain pen. If it were a more sturdy nib, akin to a fp nib, there would be no point in making that (you could just dip a fountain pen with a gold nib, if for some reason you really wanted to).

[Bo Bo Olson]

The 1895-1900 gold nibs were not disposable in they had the 'diamond point' (Diamond point was the sales name of the pure iridium used back then)....for about 1/3 the cost one could get it re-tipped. The tipping was very primitive back then....lumpy, chunky iridium, that parts of the tipping fell off. They fell off in later compounds also, through the '30's** until tipping was perfected in early WW2.

Size #1 14 K....$0.65...#3 $0.82....#5 $1.18...#7 $1.85

Re-pointed and repaired, $0.42 per nib.

 

** One of the reasons to be super careful and delicate if 'smoothing' a pre war nib.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[sidthecat]

I've got a handful of them, and several have been installed in fountain pens. Leroy Fairchild patented a process to weld the tipping onto his nibs, instead of the soldering technology used earlier.

[dcwaites]

There have been gold (solid, not plated) since the 1700s, but they were always a luxury item, made by jewellers for rich clients like royalty.

 

They were not nibs, but whole pens, with the nib being an integral part of the handle.

For example --

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tiffany-co-nib-solid-gold-dip-pen-o-153891704

[sidthecat]

Here's a picture of a 14k Leroy Fairchild dip nib: about as nice a thing as one could get for love or money. I'm too cheap to buy it.

 

[Honeybadgers]

This is fascinating. If someone could put out a gold dip pen nib with a tipped point (you can definitely make them needlepoints without too much trouble) for $60-100, that's actually a good deal. Many artists can spend that much on a particular nib in under two years.

[Tweel]

Leroy Fairchild patented a process to weld the tipping onto his nibs, instead of the soldering technology used earlier.

 

Do you have any idea what sort of tipping and solder were used?

[sidthecat]

Most manufacturers seem to have used some form of iridium alloy. I’ve noticed that nibs from other makers have pitting or breaking of the tipping metal and sometimes have to be re-tipped.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

As ever,I have learned much from other Members.

 

Just curious, but I wonder about the durability / longevity of ye olde tipping on gold alloy nibs, whether welded or soldered. Is their rarity simply because they didn't last? Or perhaps the non-gold metals used in the nib had trouble bonding to the tipping material? (I'm not a metallurgist.)

 

Bye,

S1

[Tweel]

Most manufacturers seem to have used some form of iridium alloy. I’ve noticed that nibs from other makers have pitting or breaking of the tipping metal and sometimes have to be re-tipped.

 

Okay, so iridium-tipped dip pens. I think they had to rely in the early days on deposits of the native metal, with whatever impurities and flaws it had. I wonder what sort of solder (or braze) they used to join iridium and gold.

[dcwaites]

In an earlier discussion somewhere on the FPN, it was mentioned that a tipping machine costs in the order of $20,000. Not including the hair-thin diamond-edged cutting wheel machine to do the slit.

And then you have to get a source of iridinum/osmium/xxxmium metal powder to make the tipping with.

 

Not something one picks up from Bunnings along with your Dremel tool.

 

In the meantime, I will stick with my Huashilai 3000 nib in a dip pen holder.

[rwilsonedn]

14K gold dip pen nibs seem to have been fairly common around the end of the 1800s, from what I've seen. One in a mother-of-pearl holder came to me from somewhere in my grandparents' things, and they were certainly never wealthy enough to buy princely goods. And as previously mentioned, Fairchild was in mass production with some amazing, sometimes huge, 14K dip pens, often found now in telescoping pen holders. The really big nibs are wonderful and challenging to write with, as that huge length of flexible gold acts almost like a spring, responding to the slightest hint of pressure.

ron