What Makes Expensive Pens Worth More?

[dlk613]

This may be a newbie question, but I couldn't find anything in the forums asking a similar question. What makes an $80 pen worth $80? I got my Pilot Metropolitan for around $15 from Amazon. Now, I understand that as far as fountain pens go, the Metropolitan is a great deal, but it would still seem to follow that an $80 pen would need to add $65 of value to a $15 pen to be worth the money.

So what makes this difference? Is it just better construction, i.e. materials used, or tighter tolerances for the nib? More aesthetically complicated designs, with artistic etchings and things, obviously add value to the pen and at the same time raise the cost of manufacturing, but I'm curious if there are any reasons to buy more expensive pens on the basis of better performance or longevity.

[praxim]

Actually, I think the threads here on that theme are both innumerable and endless, so I will try for a definitive answer right now:

 

yes and no.

 

 

Cheers

P

[usk15]

Materials used for bodies, nib materials and quality control for the finish product, limited edition, brand value, engineering behind the product, all the jewellery added to create an exclusive product, manufacturing country.

 

Now, even the most expensive products have some lemons form time to time, but the QC is much more drastic exactly to avoid those lemons. While an inexpensive product bad ones can occur more often and nobody will be surprised.

 

There is also brand value factor, but I have to go...maybe next time.

[zaddick]

The willingness and ability for someone to pay for it vs. the supply.

[mcorrea]

The one item that adds lots of cost to the manufacturing process and that affects the writing experience is quality control. The fact that an experienced human being tests the pen and adjusts it to write properly is expensive and can really affect the writing experience in the end.

 

Other items that add to the price are precious metals. Materials and processes that are more expensive; like a pen that is turned from a solid rod, rather that an injection molded pen, even if both are plastics. Carved facets are also expensive to make. Then there is the design and post sales service. Brand affects price too (esp. Montblanc).

 

Matias

[Uncial]

As in any product line there are honest business people making high quality products with high quality materials using a high degree of skill. You tend to have to pay a little more for that. There are also others who look at the high quality product and decide they might chance their arm getting a higher price for something of a lesser quality than the value they put on it. This is the worst example of capitalism (or the best, depending on your perspective). So, to ask if an expensive pen is worth it will depend on a host of factors, not least what the actual product is and who produces it and how. Added to this debate is he complexities of the buyer expectation. Some look only at function, some seek form over function and some look for a balance of both. Once you travel beyond function you get into more expensive territory because inevitably someone had to sit down and design something. It could go on and on with various variables, but generally speaking it isn;t possible to answer this question in general terms.

[Bo Bo Olson]

From the title I thought you were asking about the $500-800 ones.

I can remember when I thought $80 a hell of a lot of money. It ain't. It's with in the lower middle class of fountain pens.

 

In most modern nibs are nails--very stiff or semi-nail, I don't even think of a modern pen. I did buy an expensive Pelikan 200 Amethyst, a 'limited to this year' pen for some 30-40 Euro more than a normal 200 Pelikan. I like the 'true' regular flex nib....that you do find on the Pelikan 200, all the way back into semi-vintage days of pre-'98....or the 400 to '82.

The modern expensive 400 now has a fat, blobby, semi-nail, butter smooth nib.

Older is affordable at $100+ if you look hard.

 

Ah yes.....for $80 the nib should be butter smooth....if that is what you are looking for. I look for the step under, good and smooth....in on slick paper butter smooth is too slick....and has less feel to give back to you. May even have been stamped fancy.

 

For $80 ....to $120, (or for less,) one can get top of the line, very well made, well balanced (most modern Large pens have poor balance) old, used standard to medium large pens with guts.....vintage, that have great balance,and a cleaner writing nib. Some are even semi-flex.

 

I've not even looked at a pen in that class in detail, just a quick glance through the glass counter of Parker, Waterman, Cross and so on.....and many are more expensive than $80.

They have deadly boring nibs....to me. To others acceptable.

 

Top of the line pens have always been status symbols.

 

For metal pens Chinese are best for the money. Putting out some money, a $50 Duke is a fine pen.

A Safari.....or it's clone for under $30 is a good solid 'cheap' pen....you can change nibs for @ $7.

 

Out side of that I really can't help you.....the Pelikan 200 moved up from the $80 price except used with in the last 1 1/2 years to @ $100+.

I buy semi-vintage (mid '90's-70), or vintage pens ('70-50-30) (Vintage is old well made used pens) out side of some 2-3 of my 70 pens. I get affordable better choice of pen....can afford ink and paper too.

 

Many are scared of getting a clunker in Vintage pens....like anything else sometimes you get what you pay for if you pay a bit more. Those selling pens here on this com's sales section, will be selling a used pen, modern, semi-vintage or vintage at a fair to both price....and they have a name and reputation here to protect so only sell good old used pens.

 

Semi-vintage CC/piston pens should be as good as a new one but with a 'cleaner' writing nib. Vintage sac if re-saced, or can be re-sacked cheaply enough, piston, have the balance, the nib.

 

Cost of German skilled workers is much, much higher than the States...and they get 30 days/6 weeks of paid vacation also. Besides better machinery to make it, changing dies more often. I'm sure those in Italy are well paid with six weeks of vacation, as are the Japanese who take no yearly vacations; touring Europe in their 40's.

The Japanese sell the cheap pens like loss leader in a Store to get you into their brand.....the nib on the cheap pen is very, very good.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[sciumbasci]

Perceived value.

 

Take vintage watches, for example: a vintage no name gold watch from 1950 wouldn't be worth more than the actual gold it is made of. The same watch, made in the same year by Rolex (just to name one that could be recognisable by the masses) could be worth up to 8000

 

Are they really different? Connoisseurs could argue that one is a Rolex movement and the other could be a much cheaper one. Nonetheless (and special complications aside, such as minute repeater, chime, date etc... The hypothesis is that they are absolutely the same in form and function) both serve the same function: displaying current time.

[jar]

Great question.

 

And so far also great answers.

 

One thing that so far has not been mentioned is time. If you can produce very large numbers of an item in a very short period of time then the cost per item will be much lower than if you could make only a few items over a very long period of time. It's unlikely time will play a great part when looking at a $15.00 item versus an $85.00 item but there are some fountain pens out there that literally take months to build and can only be made a few at a time. If you could only make a few dozen objects in a three month period you would have to sell them for a far higher price than $15.00 or $85.00.

 

Here are some examples of fountain pens that exhibit those constraints.

 

http://www.fototime.com/9DC7E14E4C5388D/medium800.jpg

 

http://www.fototime.com/286DB25CF1DCEF3/medium800.jpg

 

The materials involved are pretty simple, the pen body is simply ebonite, hard rubber. That is a relatively low cost material, they still use it for making solid tires. But the body is the turned by one person, shaped by that person and threads cut by that person. The nib is a fairly common gold nib made in quantity by a manufacturer. But it is then hand tuned by one person, adjusted by that person and tested by that person. The finish on the pen is made from tree sap, again, a relatively low cost material. But it is also a limited supply and toxic (the same sap you get from poison ivy, poison oak and poison sumac), gathered by only those folk who are not allergic to it, then processed by one person, colored by one person, applied by one person in layers that must cure often for days between layers and each layer hand polished before the next layer applied.

 

As you can see it is a lengthy process that takes an extended period of time and involves only a few individuals. To be successful the costs of materials as well as the labor costs and some profit has to go into the retail pricing for each pen.

 

There are also some things that are limited because the skill set needed is limited. Here is an example of such a pen.

 

http://www.fototime.com/504311FF8A2455C/medium800.jpg

 

This pen has all the constraints mentioned in the first example but adds yet another craftsman, the person that does the application of the design. The design in this case is all done with various sized gold and other metal powders, applied by hand usually with bamboo tubes. Look at the following closeups to see the detail.

 

http://www.fototime.com/CF32A9CD516B87C/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/653878A718F4389/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/9820345B93E16B5/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A8C7B0A3BBCB337/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/8BB418FC9368BA6/medium800.jpg

 

Now, nothing mentioned so far would make a pen write better. It might make a pen that lasts longer since the materials used are all things that we know can last more than a lifetime.

 

Here is yet a couple more examples.

 

http://www.fototime.com/BC3596068B7BBED/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/C457406DC7DAD3D/medium800.jpg

 

Again, look closely.

 

The painting is done by hand, each piece of shell individually placed, the silver likes are actually silver foil, super super thin strips of silver foil and the silver dots all cut by hand from the foil sheet.

 

http://www.fototime.com/AAA4367A8406ECE/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6FC95BF1C7DAE5E/large.jpg

 

I hope this helps explain parts of the pricing models.

[TheRealMikeDr]

I mostly agree with Praxim and Zaddick. Does that help

 

It's not a black or white thing. For instance I have a Lamy Safari that does little to inspire me - but it's super functional. You can easily swap nibs and thus far all three nibs I have for it write perfectly. Hard as nails - yes - but they write from most any angle and I can let the pen sit for a week or more and it will start right up. It's made out of hard plastic and uses converters so I would assume this pen will last several of my lifetimes with ZERO maintenance beyond the occasional feed/nib flush. Superb value for around 30 clams USD. Your question then is - what does an $80 pen, or a $700, pen *do* that the Lamy Safari doesn't? For me - I get something that inspires me. Something that feels special in my hand. Something that I find ascetically pleasing. In other words it's not a "value" purchase. One could buy a Pilot Metro and Lamy Safari and be set for life - nothing wrong with that at all.

Edited November 18, 2016 by TheRealMikeDr

[OmegaMountain]

I think the ideas being presented are correct. It's the same concept that comes into watches which is something else I collect and appreciate for the craftsmanship. Most of the value is perceived when it comes to the base functionality of the object. A pen is a pen is a pen to the lay person - the same with watches. I have watches that cost thousands and perform the same function as the ones I own that cost far less. I know this but I don't just buy a watch for it's base function and I enjoy all the pieces in my collection all the way down to my quartz Swatch. The same comes into play with a fine pen. You're not just buying it because it can write. You're buying it for other reasons too. Of course, luxury objects often end up costing more to maintain than a base utilitarian example of an item in the same category. A Ferrari takes much more to keep going than a Honda Civic. Fit and finish, materials quality, brand reputation and manufacturing process all come into play along with many other factors. Craftsmanship is a huge part of increasing cost. If you, like me, gain some level of pleasure from the idea that an item had actual human hands involved in the process of creating it, then you may be willing to pay more for said item. Pens or any other item churned out by machines at high quantities are naturally going to be less expensive. Think of it like artwork: an original painting is always going to command a higher price than a print of the same piece because it's the actual work that the artist created. "Luxury" pens, watches, etc. are essentially individual works of art or engineering from my perspective.

 

However, when you're talking the difference between a $15 pen and an $80 pen most of the cost difference comes from labor in the country of origin and materials quality.

Edited November 18, 2016 by OmegaMountain

[TheRealMikeDr]

For example - today I'm using this pen for notes at work:

 

http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p799/sandygriff/Cocobola%20Pen_zpspnkc2frr.jpg

 

It's made out of Cocobolo wood with an Ebonite section. Of course the materials to make this are much more than a basic Lamy - and the price ($300) reflects that - but for me it's such a super cool pen to use! It feels smooth and light in my hand and I feel connected to the rain forests in Central America! Certainly makes the work day go better!

[Bo Bo Olson]

I knew when I first started with this pen mania that $80-100-120 was not 'really' expensive.....but my wallet is 'Scottish'...

 

....and it took me a long time to break the $20 dollar barrier....of old cheap pens....vintage&cheap....turned out to be middling well made....nibs are still in the adequate class.

What I could best afford.

A Good Used Old Pen....mostly 'no name'.

 

There are certain levels what you and anyone else will pay for a good pen....that level climbs...and climbs higher and faster if one wants new.

 

Inflation has set in...and a good used pen that use to cost $20-25 is now 35-40...and the same jump is being had in new....$80 pens now 100.

 

You should have been here 7-8 years ago....Easies were only $15.....now 30-40.

I should have been there ...well I was but was real ignorant.....45 years ago when $2.50 was good money for non-big brand, when one could get a Wearever or Venus for less. The Estie cost 3 1/2 hours work with out tax and SS.

You could have gotten a Snorkel for $12.....taken with a minimum wage of $0.75 ....some three days wages.

You can get a good modern pen for three days wages...even now.

 

How many days wages is a pen worth?......How high are your wages....makes cost relative.

[mirosc]

Well, not everything in this world can be explained by rational reasons.

There is also something called marketing and advertising to generate a certain desire which goes ways beyond the objective value of a pen. At some stage a company is so good at it that their return of investment is extremely high. There are no explanations in material, time,... anymore - it's just a game of expectations, dreams and very subjectively perceived "value"

[torstar]

It's a hobby where you don't have to spend $10,000 to get to quality, unlike others that FPN members indulge in.

[PAKMAN]

A Smart Car costs from 15k to 28k depending on options

A Corvette costs from 55k to 85k depending on options

 

So say from 15k to 85k difference

 

Much like a $15 pen to a $85 pen

 

Both cars will get you from point A to point B

 

Both pens will put ink on the page

 

Why choose one over the other? Why spend more? Why the difference in price?...

[PaulS]

quote.................. "Well, not everything in this world can be explained by rational reasons" ... and that really sums up what makes a lot of collectors (of almost anything) go into hock for their treasured pieces. They lose grip on common sense and fall off the waggon into the world of fashion, aesthetics and what is deemed as must have.

Pens can be, and often are, more than just pens............ they become works of art and investment portfolios - but that doesn't make them better pens................ once you've exceeded the gold nib stage, had the nib tuned by a pro, ensured you have a reliable mechanical filling system, then there's little else that your money can buy in order to make a better pen.................. i.e. one that you intend to write with rather than store in your safe deposit box - and so the law of diminishing returns sets in and throwing increased amounts of money at the thing gives only a shrinking degree of improvement to the 'pen'.

 

But hey, we live in a free world and if someone wants to spend ten thou on a Japanese lacquered work of art with hand tooled and gold finished decoration then that's fine - but the piece in question has probably long since ceased to be a 'pen', and I couldn't bring myself to use it anyway - I'd probably shake so much with fear of dropping the thing ........................ that I'd probably drop it.

[rwilsonedn]

Perhaps you could think of pen value as having three components, each with its own cost:

1. Writing mechanics: the work that goes into making the pen write well. This can be accomplished quite inexpensively with well-designed manufacturing.

2. Materials and workmanship: as others have pointed out, gold, rare woods, and hours of a craftsman's time cost money. They can add enormously to the experience of owning the pen, but not necessarily to the physical experience of writing.

3. Prestige, mainly from marketing: this too adds to the emotional experience for many people, and it can also be expensive.

How much of each you mix into a pen will help determine its price. How much importance you personally place on each will determine the pen's value to you.

ron

[BillH]

The answer is somewhere between the cost of utility and the value of some undefined intangible that is extremely personal... what rwilsonedn said. My utility only pens tend to be G2's and Signo Uni-ball's. Not afraid to lose them at the store and they do an excellent job of making marks on paper. But they don't touch that intangible place a Pelikan Tortoise or Grand Place will for me. Nobody in my family has that for pens. A couple of my brothers have it for MB automobiles... I'm a simple Camry guy myself.

 

I like what Bo Bo was saying too. I'm well old enough to remember 35 cent gas, $7 Levis, and "expensive" $12 pens. Heck, my first used truck (55 Ford) cost $500. Come to think of it, my first Harley cost me $500 as well... oh, what they have done to the value of money...

[Sergio 46]

If the Chinese used the same materials than a famous German brand, Montblanc for instance, to make a FP, the prices could be divided by 2 or 3 , but the people who today buy Montblanc for the image it conveys would cease to buy if it was Chinese and they would turn to Nakaya or Lamy !