Japanese Medium Versus European Fine

[OdysseyUnkown]

Hi Everyone

 

For my next pen I want to get a Fine nib, because at the moment i've only got medium nibs. I was looking at getting the Kaweco Classic Sport in a Fine as my next pen. But is a European Fine the same as the TWSBI Eco Medium? I want a true fine. My writing can be a bit sloppy with the mediums so i want to try a fine to see if that helps.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by OdysseyUnkown

[Bo Bo Olson]

Twisbi uses Jo Wo German nibs now, once they used Schmit I think it's spelled, a company that uses Bock nibs to fit to their feed and section. So are Western.

 

Japanese pens were nitch pens until the mid-late '90's....even though Sheaffer had pens made under it's name in the '70's in Japan.

Japanese nibs are miss marked one size smaller than western, in they are designed to Print a real tiny Japanese script, and were only selling in Japan.

 

Pilot is the skinny Japanese nib, Sailor the fat one. Japanese B=western M, Japanese M=a real F, the Japanese F = EF and Japanese EF= western EF and that's sill only @, because of tolerance and which company made the nibs.

 

You can expect half a size of difference between western companies...Parker being fatter than Sheaffer...as if that matters. Soon you will have enough pens so that won't....after 10 pens the OCD of exact nib size really don't matter at all....thin is wide as a term, so is broad. Someone's broad will be like someone elses M..

 

Just arrange your pen cups, in very skinny, skinny, mediums, broad and real wide. If it still matters which I doubt it will. My pen cups are arranged by color of the ink...when I remember.

Aurora of Italy makes the skinniest European nib that is close to Japanese width.

Please read my signature.

 

And do remember that super skinny nibs need vivid, boring monotone supersaturated inks to be seen. A western F or M is a good width for the more fun two tone shading inks.

 

Western pens are designed to write in cursive. In they were the main line for a 100 years, they were the 'standard' of widths.

 

So if you are a printer only go Japanese, it is designed to print.

 

All pen companies, western or Japanese have their very own different standards of nib widths and add the normal tolerance/slop....the size marked on the nib only makes sinse with in that company.

If you only buy one company, you can worry about nib width size. If you buy from two companies you are comparing apples and pineapples. It is impossible. One company will be thinner. As as soon as you think that....you will run into a nib on the fat side of tolerance or the other company will give you one on the skinny side of their tolerance.

Two pens coming off the line at the same time with the same size marked can be radically different in width within that company's tolerance..

 

If you want skinny nibs and think a western F is too wide....Stay Japanese and be happy....of course you should also stay away from Shading inks ....and never ever buy a semi-flex nib. Even an EF semi-flex will flex much too wide for EF. And superflex EF my oh my, they can get right fat when flexed.

 

I have the Mark 1 Eyeball, calibration of western nibs as a child.....and I tell you the truth....Japanese nibs are miss marked and too skinny.

If you have the misfortune that your first pens was Japanese, then you have a Mark 2 calibrated Eyeball and western will always be too Fat .

 

 

All western companies did market surveys to what their customers wanted.....easily done at the corner pen shop. Parker did not make slightly skinner Sheaffer nibs....in they would confuse their customers enough that they would buy a Sheaffer. That was back in the day of One Man, One Pen. And one bought a new pen every 7-10 years when the tipping got worn from 8 hours a day 40 hours a week of writing. ...

The man knew what width of nib he wanted and what company did what he told them to do.....or he was trained by brand loyalty that Parker made an M and Sheaffer's M was. too skinny, and vice versa.

 

Today you have now if you have even just two, you have more pens than a man of the '30-50's....the wife got given the worn out pen. They didn't have used pen sales back in the bad old days.

 

I have an old chart, that don't mention Japanese nibs at all. Each company makes nibs for it's own customers...Conway Stewart was by far the fattest, then came Parker, Sheaffer, Pelikan, and at the same width, the fat Waterman, Pelikan 800 and then the skinny Waterman..................EF in Pelikan was the narrowest of all.

 

is in in the late 90's Pelikan and others had to go over to fat tipping and stiffer nibs because of the Ham Fisted Ball Point Barbarians bending too many nibs, and refusing to learn how to hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen. Pelikan is 1/2 a size wider than the '90-50's nibs.They are now, fat blobbie semi-nails in the 400/600. The 'true' regular flex 200 nibs have remained in tradition, being 1/2 a width narrower than the modern 400/600 and still one of the few 'true' regular flex nib to be had. I am very impressed by the 200's nib.

 

I'm sure the other Western pens out side of Aurora also had to go to fatter stiffer nibs to save repair costs. Aurora nibs tend to be toothy...and that is not a bad thing at all.

 

For cursive writing, I really suggest semi-vintage 'pre' mid late '90's and vintage '70 and before for nice thinner nibs of 'true' regular flex... a nice springy nib with a nicer ride than the semi-nail and nail of today, in western.

I like the German semi-flex which are 1/2 a size narrower than modern, but still 1/2 a size fatter than Japanese.

 

If you go to Sheaffer sub section in the pinned section, there is a great must read post by Ron Zorn showing the tolerance/slop when measuring a nib for size.....it is possible that a skinny M will be exactly as wide as a fat F. Or it could be 1/100th of an inch off of the ex act border, not that you could notice that.

Getting a nib in the middle of tolerance was pure luck and still is.

Nib size even with in all companies is not exact and won't be until robots take over 100%. The nibs marked 1.5 or 1.1 are just as inexact as one marked BB or B in this case or any other number so marked.

The different companies all have different standards to what a B, M, or an F or EF is. Then add the natural tolerance/slop nib size becomes only hand grenade close. And that is with in that company...add the other companies and all a size is, is a vague indication.

 

You can if you are OCD enough have a nibmeister grind you exactly the width you think you need.... and then..... the ink and paper you use makes a 1/2 a size or more in difference, even if you have it ground to your version of an F....or some silly number that is no more exact than the letter it tries to replace.

By the way, some good Japanese poster did a size check on ball point sizes and they were as inexact as fountain pens.

 

All you can do is say...I want a very skinny nib, a skinny nib, a medium nib, a broad nib or a very broad nib......and be happy with anything close, in that is all you are going to get is close....and different companies and eras are slightly different.

 

Ease of writing comes from the size of the sweet spot, and super skinny nibs have super tiny sweet spots....and some very good papers are not good for super skinny nibs.

But if you want super skinny, then go Pilot only...or get it ground to needle point.

 

If you want to have fun get a wide assortment of nib widths and flexes....nail one needs a couple and nail makes much sense in super skinny, and broad.

 

I don't see any reason for semi-nail but they are there......semi-vintage and vintage 'true' regular flex are in western F and M great shading ink nibs.

 

German Vintage Semi& maxi-semi-flex are a lot of fun and the only nib flex to buy when buying oblique nibs.

Nails make good stubs and Cursive Italic....and I like seeing the line variation so would not chase a super skinny stub or CI.

 

The world is a confusing place, nib width also. So take it easy....close is good enough. What counts is does the nib write well, if so ,

Edited September 5, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[BillZ]

You didn't mention the brands of your current pens. As a general rule, European and Japanese nib sizes are "one off" in that it's what you wrote. I, too have a problem with certain nib sizes not being compatible with my handwriting. I lean to mostly F,XF or EF nibs in my pens. I do not own any European M nibs and won't buy them. Even a lot of European F nibs don't suite me. I normally buy my pens from a brick/mortar store so I can actually write with the pen. Even then I sometimes get the resident nibmeister to tune it for me. Good luck in your pursuit.

[sandy101]

What pens do you have at the moment? You may be able to get a fine nib for a pen you already own, and save yourself a few quid - and you'll have something for a comparison.

[OdysseyUnkown]

You didn't mention the brands of your current pens. As a general rule, European and Japanese nib sizes are "one off" in that it's what you wrote. I, too have a problem with certain nib sizes not being compatible with my handwriting. I lean to mostly F,XF or EF nibs in my pens. I do not own any European M nibs and won't buy them. Even a lot of European F nibs don't suite me. I normally buy my pens from a brick/mortar store so I can actually write with the pen. Even then I sometimes get the resident nibmeister to tune it for me. Good luck in your pursuit.

The current pens i have are; Two Jinhao's: A 159 magnum and an X450. A TWSBI Eco. All these pens are in a medium. Because i was never taught cursive at school, i've had to learn from scratch. After writing in print for so long, getting use to cursive has been a hard, but fun challenge. So if i was to get a European Fine, would it be closer to a medium compared to my Jinhao's and TWSBI? Because i dont want to buy a pen that i think is a fine, but compared to my other pens it's more of a medium. I want a true Fine nib. Where i live there are no physical pen shops you can go to. I have to get everything online.

Edited September 6, 2016 by OdysseyUnkown

[OdysseyUnkown]

What pens do you have at the moment? You may be able to get a fine nib for a pen you already own, and save yourself a few quid - and you'll have something for a comparison.

Jinhao 159, Jinhao X450 and a TWSBI Eco. I mean i could get a Fine nib for it, but where's the fun in that. i wanted to get a Kaweco Classic Sport in a Fine. It's compact and i can clip it on my shirt. But i'm worried that if i buy a European fine, it'll be a medium compared to my Jinhao's and TWSBI.

[senzen]

I've been wondering the same, I have my eye on a Sailor Pro Gear, I was going for F but it might be too thin for me... I have a Faber Castell in EF, which is borderline usable for me, a Pilot EF is really weird to use, coming from Waterman in F, Pelikan (super chunky F), Lamy F and M, Muji F (japanese but writes like a european size??), Parker Sonnet F. Platinum cool in F and MF also seem as thick as my Lamys...

[ac12]

My Mark 1 eyeball is used to the old US Parker/Sheaffer nibs, which are finer than the current European Parker nibs.

So I consider the current wider European nibs to be for a Mark 2 eyeball.

The Japanese/Chinese nibs are like the old US nibs that I am familiar with.

 

Anyway, back the OPs question.

I measured my nibs with a dial caliper, to eliminate any guessing and "he says..."

The TWSBI Eco uses a European nib, not a Chinese nib.

My TWSBI Eco EF nib (at 0.024 inch) is similar to a Chinese/Japanese F nib (at 0.023-0.025 inch)

My TWSBI Eco F nib (at 0.027 inch) is similar to a Chinese/Japanese M nib (at 0.025-0.028 inch)

So your TWSBI Eco M nib should write wider than your Jin Hao M nibs, all other things being equal, which they may not be.

 

My Chinese and Japanese F nibs run from about 0.023-0.025 inch, and the M nibs run from 0.025-0.028 inch.

My German Pelikan F nibs are about 0.028 inch, and the M nibs 0.035-0.038 inch.

My German Lamy F nibs run 0.028-0.030 inch, and the single M nib at 0.031 inch (pretty darn close to the F nibs, manufacturing tolerance).

My TWSBI Eco EF is 0.024 inch, and the F is 0.027 inch.

Can you see a pattern?

 

So based on my measurements, in general, the current European nibs tend to be wider than the Japanese/Chinese nibs of the same marked nib size.

 

So following this, your Jin Hao (Chinese) medium should be approximately similar to a Kaweco (German) fine nib.

I say approximately, because without the nibs in front of me to measure the width of the tip, I cannot say for certain.

 

However there are exceptions to this general rule, as there is no industry standard for nib sizes.

In fact even within a company the definition of what the nib sizes are could and has changed. Current Parker nibs are wider than the old US Parker nibs of the same grade size, and I understand that current Lamy is wider than the older Lamy.

 

Because of the lack of an industry standard, there is no such thing as a "true fine" nib, as there is no standard to define what a 'true fine' is. One can only select a nib and use that as a reference point for YOUR fine (which may not be the same as MY fine nib), or physically measure the nibs as I did.

 

Finally the width of the ink line is dependent on 4 variables: the pen, the ink, the paper, and you the writer. Change any one of these and the width of the ink like could/will change. Even 2 identical model pens, could flow ink at different rates, resulting in different ink line widths.

Edited September 6, 2016 by ac12

[vojtahlad]

Jinhao 159, Jinhao X450 and a TWSBI Eco. I mean i could get a Fine nib for it, but where's the fun in that. i wanted to get a Kaweco Classic Sport in a Fine. It's compact and i can clip it on my shirt. But i'm worried that if i buy a European fine, it'll be a medium compared to my Jinhao's and TWSBI.

 

Nibs in Jinhao 159 and X450 are pretty fat, TWSBI uses European nibs. Kaweco F should be finer.

[Safari_Camo]

Lamy F nibs run 0.028-0.030 inch

 

 

So difficult to understand imperial units....

[jar]

Widths really vary and I've never found any rule that was universal. For example, here is a writing sample with a Japanese medium (Platinum) and a European broad (ST Dupont).

 

http://www.fototime.com/22260CBA9F127FA/medium800.jpg

In this case the European broad nib was slightly finer than the Japanese medium.

 

[ac12]

Ah but how wide the ink line is from a nib is affected by a bunch of other variables, which are not objectively measurable.

• tipping profile; some of the vintage nibs do not have a ball tip, which makes their ink lines different than from a ball tip.
• ink. This needs to be the same ink when comparing different pens, as different inks flow differently.
• how wet the pen writes; which is the feed + nib + ink.
• how hard/soft a person writes, which could be different for different pens.

For examples.

• If the Platinum writes wet and the Dupont write dry, the Platinum could write a wider ink line.
• I have 2 supposedly identical pens, but with different inks. Pen A writes as expected from a Chinese M, pen B writes an ink line 3-4x wider, looking like a Western BB nib rather than a Chinese M ball tip nib. The ink in pen B is real WET.

[pajaro]

It seems to have been known for some time that a Japanese medium is about like an American or European fine. Generally.

 

Perhaps we should have a permanent thread about general nib facts.

 

Ah, yes, the Department of Exceptions says that the general rule has exceptions.

[ac12]

I think John Montishaw had a table of nib widths for various pen brands.

That is as objective as you can get.

And it would eliminate the company variation between various pen companies, that create the exceptions to the general rule.

 

I agree, as confusing as nib sizes are to a newbie, it should be a sticky. But too many stickies creates yet another problem. Maybe a separate place for references.