Does Patina Have Much Value Over Polished?

[pen tom]

I guess that this question pertains to old, vintage pens. I've become very interested in pens from about 1910-the mid 1930s. So far it has been mostly Watermans but I'm open to other ideas. Anyway.....in the antiques field, there is great value in an old patina. I'm sure that many of us have seen shows like Antiques Roadshow where some poor collector is told that the value of his item is cut in half because he cleaned it.

 

I have not seen any discussion of a similar thing with pens. Back to my Waterman pens, some nibs are polished shiny new where others are covered with a patina and both look good to my eye. I don't think that gold can tarnish, so the coating is probably staining. Is there any difference other than cosmetic? I have not noticed the prices being any different if the 90 year old nib and pen are clean as new or covered in old patina.

 

I just bought and it has not yet arrived, an old pen that is black hard rubber with a sterling silver overlay. The seller made a point of discussing the patina. This is the first time that I have seen any mention of it in the pen community. Maybe I have not looked hard enough. My interest in old pens is only a few months old. Before this, I felt that the 1950s were vintage.

[corgicoupe]

I think that will depend on the purchaser. A user will likely prefer it polished, but a collector....?

[DustyR]

Patina probably has a place, maybe when a pen has some provenance, but otherwise it's hard to figure why. I tend to clean pens up when I get them, but I also buy them to use, not to put in a safe. Now, modifications or parts replacements would be a different story, as those render a pen not "all-original".

[gregamckinney]

For me, all other things being equal, I want patina. If nothing else, polishing removes material. It is just a little, but it is some.

 

I also happen to like how it looks.

 

Regards, greg

[Sallent]

I like patina, but as an ancient coin collector I realize I probably like patina more than your average person. I don't believe in polishing and altering anything vintage or ancient. When it comes to fountain pens, I like my pens to show their honest wear. There is nothing like a beloved fountain pen with honest signs of wear as a badge of honor of the countless hours it has served you over the years. Same with vintage pens...an old pen with patina and honest wear says that this was a much loved possession that saw plenty of adventure back in the day. I like them better than a shinny old pen that probably sat forgotten in a drawer because it wasn't special at all.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Sallent

[ac12]

You can always polish something, you cannot put patina back once it is polished off. I have not seen/heard of anything that will duplicate decades of natural oxidation. Simple task, polish a penny and see if you can get that old brownish look back.

 

The other thing as has been said is polishing removes metal. The important thing is anything that is raised will gradually be worn down first. It is those raised parts that you want to protect from wear. Once you loose detail, it is lost forever.

Edited April 18, 2016 by ac12

[Tweel]

I think that with pens, it's a matter of individual preference and the monetary value is in the thing itself. In other words, a dent will take off value, patina won't (except in the case of browned hard rubber).

 

By the way, pure gold doesn't tarnish, but the gold alloy in your nibs will.

[FarmBoy]

Polished shiny pens suck.

[gregamckinney]

Polished shiny pens suck.

An interesting side thread would be, "What vintage pen looks the worst when polished to a full shine?" Particularly since we know that most vintage pens never started out with a 'classic car at Concours d'Elegance' shine.

 

greg

[Llama]

For me, with any item I want things to look nice. I want them to look as they should. As long as the pen (or whatever) isn't damaged, I see no reason to remove it's character.

 

I also like buying nice things, and seeing a certain amount of wear happen naturally. I'm not likely to buy a used item that has damage. But, if I put the scratch on it I'm ok with it.

[pen tom]

An interesting side thread would be, "What vintage pen looks the worst when polished to a full shine?" Particularly since we know that most vintage pens never started out with a 'classic car at Concours d'Elegance' shine.

 

greg

 

I bought one Waterman 52 that was listed as "restored" on ebay. It was restored way more than what should be done. The barrel was polished to a shiny blackness. Unfortunately, to do that means that hard rubber was removed from the barrel and cap and you could just barely make out the printing on the sides of the pen. But it sure was shiny. I didn't think of sending it back because the nib is so nice. And the seller did not lie, it sure was restored.

[Kelly G]

There is patina and then there is crud. Some materials lend themselves to honest patina, especially the wonderful vintage Sterling Silver overlays. Other vintage pens need a good cleaning to remove an accumulation of crud (I don't have a better term). That doesn't mean old pens need to be polished beyond their original look or that all scratches and marks of honest use be buffed away.

 

My best example of this issue is a Sheaffer OS Balance lever filler I found in an antiques shop. It is the pedestrian black model with the half-ball radius clip - so somewhere late '30's to early '40's vintage? I got it for a ridiculously sumgai price, however, on close inspection, the pen revealed several flaws. First, it was worn from years of careful use. The proprietor at the shop said it came from an estate sale of a recently deceased local gentleman who was the original owner of the pen. My assessment was the pen was well loved but used in everyday settings. There is some shrinkage to the celluloid around the lever ring and there are some hairline cracks in the barrel end. But, the nib is wonderful and the pen writes like new.

So, should I go into deep restoration? I don't think so. I've used the pen, hopefully with the same care as the original owner, and I consider the pen to be well loved in its former life and now in my care.

 

All this is to say; patina.

[JonSzanto]

Patina:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03086/Helen-Mirren-2_3086734c.jpg

Over-polished:

http://images.amcnetworks.com/wetv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/jkb_joan_rivers_bio_460x460.jpg

[FarmBoy]

Jon reminded me of an old farmer saying. You can put lipstick on a pig but you still got a pig.

[JonSzanto]

At least I didn't remind you of an old farmer.

[FarmBoy]

Jon

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill.

You can be an old farmer too.

FarmBoy

[Vintagepens]

Or, you can put a pig on a buffer, but it's probably not a good idea.

Or something like that.

 

Jon reminded me of an old farmer saying. You can put lipstick on a pig but you still got a pig.

[Biber]

Patina is over rated. I've polished enough copper, sterling, and silver and brass musical instruments to know that polish as you will, it will always come back unless you specifically do something, like applying a sealant or storing the item in a closed environment, to prevent it. As for losing "decades old" character, baloney, it'll come back, indistinguishably so, sooner than you think. "Antique" dealers like patina because it's superficial history and character (=$$) and don't like it when people polish things because they have to wait for it to come back (time = >$$). No instant gratification there. Ever wonder why you don't see patina on things in museums? Besides there are ways of expediting the oxidation process, counterfeiters know all about that.

 

Polish away I say!

[JonSzanto]

Patina is over rated. I've polished enough copper, sterling, and silver and brass musical instruments to know that polish as you will, it will always come back unless you specifically do something, like applying a sealant or storing the item in a closed environment, to prevent it. As for losing "decades old" character, baloney, it'll come back, indistinguishably so, sooner than you think. "Antique" dealers like patina because it's superficial history and character (=$$) and don't like it when people polish things because they have to wait for it to come back (time = >$$). No instant gratification there. Ever wonder why you don't see patina on things in museums? Besides there are ways of expediting the oxidation process, counterfeiters know all about that.

 

Polish away I say!

 

Except that everything that you are talking about centers on metal polishing, and I believe that in this particular conversation, a broader concept is at work, that of polishing/over-polishing pens. For pens that are either not metal bodied or pens with overlays, there is still the issue of people polishing a pen so much, with various agents and materials, that irreversible damage can be done. Witness countless pens whose barrels now are gleaming celluloid/acrylic/etc, at the expense of imprints that are weak or non-existent from being polished out of existence. Not to mention chasing that has been worn off of HR pens.

 

I'll do whatever I want to the pens that I am certain will never leave my hands, but if there is a chance a pen will be sold again, it's a bit short-sighted to do something that make affect it's sale value, whether or not you think the patina the pen carries is folly or not.

 

I'm a professional musician and I don't happen to think that the parallel to musical instruments is a strong one.

[Biber]

Sorry if I riled you with my comment. You seem anxious to engage in an argument. Perhaps I did miss the broader topic at hand. The OP mentioned obtaining a HR pen with a sterling silver overlay that was patinated. Was that not the point of the question? He also mentioned nibs. Regardless, I readily admit that polishing and plastics/celluloid and hard rubber etc is a sticky subject. But there are degrees of polishing and appropriate techniques. And it need not be anywhere near the extent that would damage imprints or features of a pen. Hopefully, the op would entrust the pen to someone who knows what they are doing, barring which nobody is suggesting he lay into a makeshift buffing wheel on a drill in his basement. Metal components are quite well served by many polishing products that, when carefully used, need not pose a threat. That's the op's call whether or not to undertake the task - hopefully, hopefully if the pen has any value in it, either intrinsically or from what he paid for it, he'll decide after considerable research, and ultimately decide to send it on to someone well versed and respected in pen restoration. In my mind it is the HR element that posses the biggest issue as to whether or not to clean/polish the pen.

 

Yes I do feel it's folly to push value of patina on a metal object, given that it will always return after being cleaned. As for the strength of my analogy to musical instruments, you must not be a brass player. Keeping a brass instrument (usu. copper, raw brass or silver) shining is a losing proposition. That's why players have them gold plated or lacquered.