Old Style Vs New Style M400

[tragique]

What are the pros and cons, in your opinion, between the M400 old style and M400 new style?

 

I'm interested in buying a M400 as my first Pelikan and I've been really tempted to get the M400 old style (pre-97), but is there any reason I should consider the modern M400 instead?

[Potter]

I've got an old-style on the way. I don't know if there is much difference, other than in the nibs, which is discussed here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/303211-nib-unit-compatibility-between-old-style-pre-97-m400-and-modern-m400/

 

I guess the question is, what other significant differences could there be?

[printhardcopy]

the nib is more soft for pre 1997 version.

 

the nib is single tone while current model is 2 tone.

 

depend individual.

[sargetalon]

It's really just a matter of trim and the nib. Comes down to personal preference in the end. For wrtiting experience, I'd go with the older style every time.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Same as said before a modern 400/600 two toned nib is a fat blobby semi-nail. It is butter smooth if that is all you want. You can continue holding a fountain pen like a ball point...if too lazy to learn to hold a fountain pen.

 

The pre '98 400 is like the Stainless Steel 200's nib or the Celebry...a nib with a bit easier tine spread and tine bend....just enough to give a better ride than a semi-nail....not in the same league as a semi-flex....a nib/pen you can buy later. Cleaner line too.

 

Certain inks shade better with a 'true' regular flex than with the wetter semi-flex.

 

My boring modern blobby fat BB nib from my 605 is in retirement, replaced by a semi-flex B from a 400n.

 

At first I was a semi-flex snob ....but later got to like the semi-vintage or vintage regular flex nibs ....what I call 'true' regular flex....in many not knowing better think the semi-nail nib on their new pen to be a "regular" flex....in it comes with the pen regularly.

 

I do admit the new post '97 M400 with the rings at the piston is a bit sharper looking...the two toned nib looks sharp too.

99% of the people in the world would not know you are supposed to have a two toned nib, instead of the better monotone 'pre'98 nib on that pen.

Some day you could get a pre'65-50 semi-flex nib too....monotone to put on the sharper looking modern M400.

 

Of course really, you will want a pre'98 M400 for your collection, and a '50's 400, 400nn and so on. Sooner or later.

I do recommend the pre'98 400 over the post '97 modern 400....you get a better nib on it, for lots less than a new M400.

 

I have one in Tortoise....and a M nib is a very under rated nib...but it takes a good shading ink test to show the M is it's own good width for shading inks. It is a maligned nib, in most go skinny or fat from M....picking up the prejudice from this Com.

 

Most of my shading inks will work well with a regular flex F nib, the ink will not be so dark as a wider nib.

Ie. MB Toffee:

F was light with dark trails.

M was 50-50. It is then I lost my prejudice vs a good clean lined 'true' regular flex M.

B was dark with light trails.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[zuhandensein]

 

The pre '98 400 is like the Stainless Steel 200's nib or the Celebry...a nib with a bit easier tine spread and tine bend....just enough to give a better ride than a semi-nail....not in the same league as a semi-flex....a nib/pen you can buy later. Cleaner line too.

 

 

For what I read here —and in some other posts too— I understand that after buying a new M400 it would make sense to 'downgrade' the nib and use a M200 one instead of the 400s... I mean for the pleasure of writing for those that do not care about having a 2 tone nib... Is that right?

[Bo Bo Olson]

Yes, but why not buy a '80's-97 M400 in the first place...and get a better gold nib....not that I'm against SS nibs.

It would be ok, sharp pen and a SS nib is better as you will find out and for only some @$25 for a SS steel 200's nib.

 

Make sure you get the Stainless Steel nib and not the gold plated 200's nib, in the gold plated nib gives up performance for looks.

 

For the longest time I've been raving the springy 200's nib = the '90's 400 nib...and folks said nope. But I was thinking SS nib, having had no gold plated 200 nibs pass through my hands that I have trans-mailed.

The stainless steel nib is better than the gold plated nibs of the 200.

 

In I had a lot of 400's...a '90's M400, two 400s, a 400n, 400nn and a 500. I did not need a 200, but got a 215 so I could have the stainless 200 nib.

[MarkTrain]

If you buy one of the older "old-style" M400, there is no guarantee that you will end up with one of the better (softer/flexier, some say "semi-flexible" others would say slightly flexible) nibs. As I mention in another thread, starting in the early '90s Pelikan starting making the nibs very rigid (ie nails) and those older softer/flexier nibs were gone in a year or so as old stock was sold. A late '90's "old-style" M400 wrote just the same (like a nail) as a late '90's "new-style" M400 as they both came off the same production line. The only difference between the new- and old-style was the embellishment of the nib. The differences between the softer/flexier nibs were subtle and only a keen eye can tell the difference. In the picture below are a pair of EF and a pair of F old-style nibs. The nibs on the left are from the '80's and those on the right are from the '90's. Can you spot the differences?

[white_lotus]

Would someone be able to either post or link to examples of writing showing the difference between the nibs? And maybe not even "fancy writing" but normal writing.

 

My writing experience with the current modern Pelikan nibs on M200 and M400 pens seems quite decent. But then again I just use my usual scribble, and maybe I don't need anything fancy.

[zuhandensein]

Thank you! Very useful information, indeed. I asked because I was just considering the possibility of using —for a while— the nib of my M200 in the M400 I am planning to buy. Thanks Bo Bo for remarking that SS does not includes the gold plated ones, which is my case. With my experience, i was actually surprised to read such good things about M200 nibs.

 

 

 

 

I am more inclined to buy a new M400. I am thinking on a tortoise brown, if that rumour is still alive... With this information I will certainly want to get an old 400 nib at some point, but probably sooner than later after my purchase.

 

Btw, I can see no difference in the nibs in the picture other that the EF/F letters, which seemed to be closer to the logo in the 80's version of the nibs...

[MarkTrain]

Make sure you get the Stainless Steel nib and not the gold plated 200's nib, in the gold plated nib gives up performance for looks.

 

This has been discussed before. The only thing gold-plating a SS nib changes is looks. Performance is completely unchanged by plating. Now changes in production over the years may make it appear that there is a difference, but then that is comparing apples and oranges.

Edited January 29, 2016 by MarkTrain

[savingbirds]

This has been discussed before. The only thing gold-plating a SS nib changes is looks. Performance is completely unchanged by plating. Now changes in production over the years may make it appear that there is a difference, but then that is comparing apples and oranges.

Agreed, I've had M200s and M205s that wrote equally well. My only point of contention against gold plating is that they eventually rub off and leave a pretty distasteful mark.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well I have a M400 Germany Tortoise. They stopped making them in '96...a year before they stopped making the no ring M400 in '97.

 

I am glad. That all my posts are now obsolete with the '90's 400's nibs. I am of course happy even though I can't prove it my M400 is much closer to '90 than '96.

 

My regular flex M400 is very similar to my 'true' regular flex gold Celebry nib...and my SS Celebry nib.

In the Celebry's came in a bit late in the '90's into the 2000's...I had ass-u-med..the change over of M400 nibs came with the new pen body.

 

Mark Twain, a number of posters with gold plated 200 nibs said I was wrong with the 'true' regular flex 200 nibs ... with gold plating.

I do have a still fully plated regular flex 120. ... But I do tend to believe what others say ... eventually, about my assumptions.

 

In the 200 nibs I admire were SS, I was willing to believe it was a gold plating.

So from now on out the owners of SS 200 nibs will have to state their years...to see when the 200 nib went down hill.

[MarkTrain]

Btw, I can see no difference in the nibs in the picture other that the EF/F letters, which seemed to be closer to the logo in the 80's version of the nibs...

My photography is poor so this is easier to see if you have the nibs in hand. The differences are in the shape of the shoulders of the nib. The 80's nib have broader shoulders that are more flared outwards, while on the 90's nibs the shoulders are curved inward and downwards more resulting in a stiffer nib.

[MarkTrain]

Bo Bo is right that with the W. German M400's one has a really good chance of getting one of the softer/flexier nibs. However, it should also be noted that there were earlier M400's marked "Germany" that also had the better nibs. A common misconception is that if the pen is marked "Germany" it was made after unification. Pelikan did not start marking their items "W. Germany" until the mid 80's. I have a tortoise M400 that I picked up from the clearance table at Flax that was marked "Germany" and this was March 20 of 1989 (still have the receipt) and I am pretty sure the wall was still standing then.

 

Added note: fpn'er Chumango also reports a similar case of a pre-unification M400 marked "Germany" with a nib that "has noticeably more spring than later nibs"

Edited January 30, 2016 by MarkTrain

[MarkTrain]

Another note concerning the dating of "W. Germany" pens. Joshua on his web site talks about "Decoding the M481" where he shows the packaging label of the M481 produced in the early 80's as "Made in Germany" while that for the M150/M481 produced in the mid 80's is shown as "Made in W. Germany" Thus, this confirms that the change over from Germany to W. Germany was in the mid 80's and that the period of production of "W. Germany" pens was very short (~6 years).

Edited January 30, 2016 by MarkTrain

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thanks for the interesting link.

I guess SargTalon is now happy, there are more Pelikans in the 200 'class' to collect.

I was ignorant of the 481.

 

Now to run out to the German Flea markets and convince someone his 481 is only a 150/200. (Where is the evil Snidely Whiplash smilie?)

 

Hummmmm...I really don't need an early 200 or the 481....I did need an Ibis...do need a Rapen(sp?)...It never ends. A 150 also...and a 300. No that one is much too small....need the Big 300 though....and that Portuguese huge one.

A '30's full tortoise yep....

 

I have ordered my wife to double our Speculative Investments.

.

.

.

Play the lottery twice.

[tragique]

I ended up buying this: https://i.imgur.com/vRDGjVT.jpg (seller's picture).

 

Old Style M400+K400, stickered, NOS and in box for 150 euros shipped. It's hard to see on the picture but there is "W.-Germany" on the gold band of the clip.

It would have probably been cheaper to just buy a used one or one without the K400, but I thought this was a really nice deal.

 

I'll report back when it arrives here.

 

I'm hoping my nib is more on the nail-side, I have too many soft nibs already, but no matter what this pen should be very enjoyable and I find the aesthetics more pleasant than the modern M400.

Edited January 30, 2016 by tragique

[Bo Bo Olson]

No it will not be a nail in it is a pre'90...

 

ain't it just like Murphy....someone who would love a modern semi-nail or a D nib...gets one of the grand springy regular flex nib.

 

You should be able to sell it for more than you paid.

 

why didn't you buy a guaranteed semi-nail ... one with a ring on the piston post '97.

There are enough of them used too.

 

You can get a H nib that is a hard one or a D nib...a nail's nail. And it is...you can open tanks with it or stick it in mountains when you climb them.

[tragique]

I received my M400 set today. What an amazing pen it is. The nib is very soft, about what I'd call semi-flex, and feels amazingly smooth. The pen is a joy to use, and despite its age (made between 80-89 as it has w.-germany), the piston feels really smooth. The pen was NOS and it feels good to be its first owner. The ballpoint also surprised me, it has its original refill but still writes.