Why Are Expensive Pens So Badly Made?

[LadyS]

I also love the misuse of 'anecdotal information'. In the absence of a clearly defined study ALL the information that comes from private buyers is anecdotal.

 

The OP's experience has led them to believe that QC is inversely proportional to price. They have every justification for asking the question.

THIS.

If we are going to disparage every question, opinion, review, input, etc.. then we might just as well close down the forum.

All of the forum is anecdotal! Much of it is personal opinion and subjective. You may disagree, which still doesn't make something posted "right" or "wrong".

 

That being said, I can only add my own tuppence to the OP's post:

Knowing what I know about the cosmetics industry (and to an extent the fashion, jewellery and food industry; overall this applies to all other industries, and whatever you can think of) I can only say that price does not always equate quality. Sometimes you have to pay a hefty price for quality and craftsmanship (well worth it), but often you buy into the "lifestyle" (and the brand). You have to know what you want/ expect from a product and conduct your research (esp if you cannot "test-drive" sth).

We often throw our money at something expensive and therefore obviously expect something superior and when it does not perform, we are more likely to find excuses for a high priced product. At the same time we are quick to dismiss something cheap because of its price, even though conditions were not ideal for the product to perform well, thus judging it unfairly.

In terms of FPs, one of the hotly debated topics is the gold nib.. Well worth it to some, not to others.. I personally think that gold nibs are not superior, as we all know it is the tipping material and polish that is most important. Even a company answered the question to this enquiry and said gold is more for the ego than performance (I believe it was Sheaffer who answered someone back in the 1970s or so, it is here on the forum somewhere). I think more people are disappointed with high priced products (in all industries and esp the big brands) than they care to admit, myself not exempt from this behaviour.

[jar]

Of course, price does not assure quality.

 

And if someone is happy with less expensive items then they should buy the less expensive items.

 

But, there are some things that you simply cannot get without there being a cost. If you value things like the actual materials used, the attention to even the most mundane of details, fit and finish then there will be costs involved.

[Freedom]

I've only been into fountain pens for about 3 years and my higher end and most expensive pens (around $200) have all been flawless. And when it comes to my things, i'm rather OCD. So for me to say that they are flawless means they are absolutely flawless!

Some cheap ones are also flawless. Come to think of it, only my Noodler's Ahab wasn't out of the 10 pens I currewntly own.

As with everything in life, there will always be lemons out there...

[proton007]

I've asked the same question myself, and generally, it turns out that variations in mass production are hard to eliminate completely, especially when it comes to working with materials.

 

An expensive piece isn't always expensive because of the branding, a seemingly simple looking embellishment may sometimes involve many additional steps during manufacturing.

 

In an industry as subjective as fountain pens, the range of 'acceptable' behavior at the consumer end is variable. QC techniques can only check for a certain well defined range of quality issues.

 

This means the role of the Retailer becomes that much more important, as that's where the customer is dealt with, and that's where fine tuning comes in. This was the case with a lot of other similar trades (clothing, accessories etc.) until mass production took over, reducing the customizability at the retail end.

 

We fall into the trap of buying these items as if they're just another phone/tablet/laptop/flatpack furniture.

 

So, my recommendation would be to avoid buying pens at big stores, and support stores where you not only get to choose what you want, but how you want it to perform.

 

 

To sum up, I'll just add a piece of anecdotal evidence :

 

- Most of my visits to MB boutiques have been disappointing. The staff is poorly trained to even answer simple questions, and you can clearly see they're not FP users.

- Brands like Pelikan don't even have a proper boutique, so they sometimes suffer a loss of reputation due to bad parent store policies, let alone the pen performance.

- Pens bought from vintage/repair sites, or specialized pen stores, have always been wonderful.

Edited January 14, 2016 by proton007

[torstar]

Of course, price does not assure quality.

 

And if someone is happy with less expensive items then they should buy the less expensive items.

 

But, there are some things that you simply cannot get without there being a cost. If you value things like the actual materials used, the attention to even the most mundane of details, fit and finish then there will be costs involved.

 

 

Price does assure I'll have a conniption fit when I think I've lost a MB LE forever.

[LuckyKate]

My cheap pens have always been annoying and unreliable after a relatively short period of time: I have a cup full of Jinhaos and Ahabs and old Alstars that fell apart (leaks, racks,, feeds that never worked no matter how many youtube videos I watched) without being worth repairing. Some of these worked a day, others never worked, some worked a couple years. ..

 

On the other hand, I've used my Pelikan 200 everyday for 10 years, carried it everywhere. I've cleaned it with brass sheets a couple times and once had the tine straightened after I dropped it hard right on the nib. And it still works completely reliably and is a joy to use.

 

I do like varsities but they aren't pretty at all and I get attached anyway and then they fall apart. I do like varsities but I get attached to my pens and hate accumulating junk and then throwing things away.

 

So in my experience the cheap pens really haven't worked out in the long term.

[4lex]

Thanks to everyone on interesting contributions. I had a lot of fun reading this thread.

I am of course aware that when we buy expensive or even luxury items there is much more then expectation of quality. It really is about that elusive feeling of owning something authentic and precious. But I still believe that if a company wants to sell premium goods they should provide premium quality. Call me old fashioned.

[4lex]

My cheap pens have always been annoying and unreliable after a relatively short period of time: I have a cup full of Jinhaos and Ahabs and old Alstars that fell apart (leaks, racks,, feeds that never worked no matter how many youtube videos I watched) without being worth repairing. Some of these worked a day, others never worked, some worked a couple years. ..

 

On the other hand, I've used my Pelikan 200 everyday for 10 years, carried it everywhere. I've cleaned it with brass sheets a couple times and once had the tine straightened after I dropped it hard right on the nib. And it still works completely reliably and is a joy to use.

 

I do like varsities but they aren't pretty at all and I get attached anyway and then they fall apart. I do like varsities but I get attached to my pens and hate accumulating junk and then throwing things away.

 

So in my experience the cheap pens really haven't worked out in the long term.

Congratulations, M200 is a great pen. I had 2 myself, never had any problems.

[pajaro]

I have had a few expensive pens I didn't like, but I can't say the quality or quality control were lacking. Usually the more costly pens worked for me, but sometimes I realized I didn't like the size or the way the nibs wrote. Nib creep is more a function of the ink. I think most of the pens I bought new were perfect. Regardless of price. Different people have different expectations, though, and if cheap pens come with a great finish and extras, you might expect even more from a higher priced product. It wouldn't surprise me if the cause of the high price of fountain pens were because of greed and trying to extract maximum profit from a declining market, and, if the buyer starts to think this to be true, disenchantment would be expected to follow.

[4lex]

I have had a few expensive pens I didn't like, but I can't say the quality or quality control were lacking. Usually the more costly pens worked for me, but sometimes I realized I didn't like the size or the way the nibs wrote. Nib creep is more a function of the ink. I think most of the pens I bought new were perfect. Regardless of price. Different people have different expectations, though, and if cheap pens come with a great finish and extras, you might expect even more from a higher priced product. It wouldn't surprise me if the cause of the high price of fountain pens were because of greed and trying to extract maximum profit from a declining market, and, if the buyer starts to think this to be true, disenchantment would be expected to follow.

 

Thanks, but I need to correct you on your statement "nib creep is more a function of the ink." It could be misleading if it would let people believe that ink is causing the nib creep.

Although there is correlation between some inks and nib creep there is no causation.

Nib creep is caused by minor imperfection (or microscopic damage) in the cutting of the nib tines.

My Lamy 27 and M400 will have ink creep with Iroshizuku take-sumi but not with Quink. So I can see how it could let someone believe that ink is causing the ink creep. But Correlation is not causation. Most people who fall asleep with their shoes on, wake up with a headache. There is clear correlation. But there is no causation, it is not the shoes causing the headache.

[Brianm_14]

Your personal bad luck, some OCD and a lack of experience. Anecdotal information is simply anecdotal information and certainly not justification for an assertion like "Why Are Expensive Pens So Badly Made?"

 

As your experience and sample size grows you may come to far different conclusions.

 

However, if you are happier with the less expensive pens then the answer is "Buy less expensive pens and rejoice."

Anecdotal evidence cannot be combined, pooled, or lumped together in greater numbers in order to somehow evade the serious limitations inherent in such casual, uncontrolled observations. Please understand, I am not doubting your experiences per se, or your word, by any means.

 

What I do question is the validity of using such experiences to formulate your original statement about expensive fountain pens. Your words are nothing more than an assumption or assertion based on anecdote, should not be stated in such a way as to suggest this is some sort of conclusion established through careful observation and controlled investigation. Your experiences are, at most, suggestive.

 

These sort of statements all tend to fall in group of logical fallacies similar to the old trick question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

(Personally (for what it's worth) I am a fan of good, less-expensive fountain pens and have little interest in the high-priced stuff. If you have better luck with cheaper pens, well, you know what you should be buying.

[Cryptos]

 

What I do question is the validity of using such experiences to formulate your original statement about expensive fountain pens. Your words are nothing more than an assumption or assertion based on anecdote, should not be stated in such a way as to suggest this is some sort of conclusion established through careful observation and controlled investigation. Your experiences are, at most, suggestive.

 

 

Wow! That's just uncalled for. I found the OP question to be of interest, as are many of the responses. I also believe that the OP made the assumption based on very careful observation of the sample of pens he/she has in hand.

 

In the absence of any kind of validated data we have to use the information that is available, in this case direct small sample observations by numerous people. Yes, it's not very scientific, but it is 100% better than closing your eyes as you hand over your money.

 

If you - Brianm_14 - have some hard data linking QC to price tag then please share with us.

 

 

vonManstein, I think you raised a good point, and it will be interesting to see if we get enough 'anecdotal' responses to form some kind of 'hypothesis'.

[jar]

Anecdotal evidence cannot be combined, pooled, or lumped together in greater numbers in order to somehow evade the serious limitations inherent in such casual, uncontrolled observations. Please understand, I am not doubting your experiences per se, or your word, by any means.

 

What I do question is the validity of using such experiences to formulate your original statement about expensive fountain pens. Your words are nothing more than an assumption or assertion based on anecdote, should not be stated in such a way as to suggest this is some sort of conclusion established through careful observation and controlled investigation. Your experiences are, at most, suggestive.

 

These sort of statements all tend to fall in group of logical fallacies similar to the old trick question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

(Personally (for what it's worth) I am a fan of good, less-expensive fountain pens and have little interest in the high-priced stuff. If you have better luck with cheaper pens, well, you know what you should be buying.

 

Understand a single example of an expensive pen that is not poorly made refutes the question posed in the OP.

 

Sorry but them's the facts.

 

The answer to the initial question is that any generalized assumption such as "expensive pens are not well made" is simply incorrect and unfounded.

 

Now if someone wants to say some expensive pens are poorly made I doubt there would be any objections.

 

If someone wants to say "My experience has been that the expensive pens I purchased were poorly made" it would possible pass but reasonable folk would ask what pens, what were the failings, are your expectations reasonable.

[Cryptos]

"An astronomer, a physicist and a mathematician are on a train in Scotland.

The astronomer looks out of the window, sees a black sheep standing in a field, and remarks,

 

"How odd. All the sheep in Scotland are black!"

 

"No, no, no!" says the physicist. "Only some Scottish sheep are black."

 

The mathematician rolls his eyes at his companions' muddled thinking and says,

 

"In Scotland, there is at least one sheep, at least one side of which appears to be black from here some of the time."

[Algester]

I can say that there will always be lemons no matter the price

I do can say I do like some Jinhaos but I do not like how they weigh but in my country A Jinhao can be had with the same price as a Metropolitan cheaper than that you get NOS Heros 616 and the 78G

I experienced a lemon with a Sailor Lecoule which isnt "cheap" without saving excesses either way for a Lecoule I could have bought a Lamy Logo which are the same price in my country, but I already have a Logo so it was a moot choice to buy another one,

next I have a Lamy 2000 which is still for me the cheapest gold nibbed Piston Filler I could buy locally (CH92 is a contender to a cheaper alternative if they were available), I got a lemon nib it was soo dry it would write and then not but I wasnt confident with my tuning skills so I had to tune it to my friend who works on nibs in the end it came out good

but for the same price I could buy a Lamy 2000 I could have bought a Faber-Castell wood pen (Ondoro and Ambition) are roughly on the same price in my country and they have been good OTB, and are insanely smooth but I like the Ondoro's design than the Ambition but I like how the Ambition looks aesthetically.

beyond that I can't comment on prices as I havent owned a 5 digit price pen in my country but I have tested some 5 digit price point pens so far they were good but as far as I know they were bought from reputable sellers mostly in the US namely nibs.com... (Nakaya most of them) I only held 1 MB once but that had to be sorted out as well it was a 1912

I once lusted over a Homo Sapiens in Lava but when I realize beyond the unstable Visconti QC, the fact its quite hard to clean and that it has no ink window is quite a frustrating issue. so I decided to shift my attention to a german underdog GvFC as my grail pen while yes it's a C/C pen but hey I know a lot of C/C pens that would go for the same price as a Classic Anello namely most of them are Japanese <_<

Edited January 15, 2016 by Algester

[JonSzanto]

1. Nib creep may have a number and degree of causes, but the primary cause is the ink, not the nib or feed. This is born out in much experience, and can be repeated with the inks.

The entire premise of the thread is specious: expensive pens as an entire group are not badly made, nor are all inexpensive (nee cheap) pens godsends. That one user experienced a statistical skewing that would cause them to write the subject line of the thread is just very small data sampling combined with hyperbole. Fun for making a thread take a little run of activity, but not very illuminating.

If I could only capture wisdom in a Jar. Oh, wait...

[Lam1]

 

• If I could only capture wisdom in a Jar. Oh, wait...

[AndyKeir]

I'm certainly no expert but I would have thought that nib creep was a function of both the ink and the nib.

If the ink has very low surface tension then it will be more prone to creep, meaning the ink might be the primary factor.

If the nib has microscopic flaws/pathways which encourage capillary action or wicking of the ink onto the top surface of the nib then the nib might well be the primary factor.

It can be shown that a nib can be polished/altered/repaired such that it no longer exhibits creep with the same ink after such treatment then this points to the nib being a factor.

It can also be shown that nib material can influence susceptibility to creep.

Similarly it can be shown that changing the ink without altering the nib can influence creep.

 

Surely in reality the primary factor will change from case to case ... sometimes the ink, sometimes the nib?

[JonSzanto]

Surely in reality the primary factor will change from case to case ... sometimes the ink, sometimes the nib?

 

In reality? Well, I've never had a nib that would cause all, or even many, inks to creep. However, I have had inks that would creep on practically any pen I put them in. Hence, my listing the ink as the primary factor. With a lot of weight, as well, as there have been many pens and many inks get used around here. And I'd be very curious to get a good look at the surface of the nib that pulls ink up onto the top face of the nib by virtue of some flaws on the surface.

[Hospitalier]

A fountain pen is a complex and necessarily precise bit of engineering...

Wait... what?!

Can you please give me an example of a more simple piece of everyday technology, nay - even obsolete technology!?!

 

Back to OP's OP, if you have the privilege to be able to buy a more than everyday fountain pen then you also have the privilege of recourse to satisfaction - in layman's terms, the more you pay the more you can expect in customer service; no, it shouldn't be like that, but do you think I will really bother to contact Noodlers regarding the poor build quality of their Ahab when I have other far superior and more than acceptable pieces to play with?