Enough Interest In Mabie Todd, Swan Or Otherwise? P7

[Happy Harry]

That doesn't seem to bother anyone when including Parker and Waterman's does it? USA/Canada/GB/France...

 

Anyway despite its most honourable American Origins, Mabie Todd was in the end wholly British and certainly mainly British from about 1931.

 

Cob

 

True, in that context it's not an issue. I've always thought of Mabie Todd as British despite it's origins.

[Cepasaccus]

For me it is a mixed company. I have N.Y. pens and England pens.

[rivermaze]

Either British or American (and Canadian), after reading about these pens on goodwriterspens.com, I'd love to see a separate forum too.

[Cob]

For me it is a mixed company. I have N.Y. pens and England pens.

Quite so, it was. However, the assets were acquired by Mabie Todd & Co Ltd, London established in 1914. This company acquired all the assets in January 1916, the agreement having been concluded the previous month.

 

However the American company did continue and indeed I understand that all Mabie Todd nibs were manufactured in the USA up to 1931. It would seem that the American arm failed to prosper in the tough depression era in the USA.; the final incarnation of Mabie Todd USA was wound up in 1941.

 

Cob

[Cob]

I ma very pleased to have a really old Mabie Todd: in fact a Mabie Todd & Bard eye-dropper. It's delightful and in surprisingly good order. Mabie Todd & Bard ceased to exist in 1907, being replaced by Mabie Todd & Co. From what I have read I believe that my pen is one of the earliest Swans, made between 1889 and 1895. I writes really nicely and it does not leak, a testimony to the build quality to be found in Swans from the start, over 120 years ago.

 

Cob

 

 

[Cepasaccus]

It is said, that the Swan name was introduced 1895. So it should be later than that, perhaps "around 1900". To me it looks like a 3012 Pocket Pen. My Bard 3012 is capped 132 mm long and has a diameter of 8.7mm. It is a great writer! Unfortunately I do not trust the pen to be leak-proof. So I won't carry this Pocket Pen in my pocket. I have also a non-Bard 3012 with box and WWI medals from the pen owner.

 

Some photos of the Bard 3012 here:

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85706#p85706

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85875#p85875

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=101200#p101200

 

I used it to sign at the notary once.

 

Cepasaccus, who didn't get the blue-bronze Blackbird today

[Greenie]

Cepasaccus,

 

You MUST try harder and buy a BB 2/46

It is a Swan in almost every way. The quality and beauty is that of a Swan. Only the words on the section, feed, nib, clip make it a Blackbird. And mine has a wonderfully flexible nib as well.

 

[Cob]

It is said, that the Swan name was introduced 1895. So it should be later than that, perhaps "around 1900". To me it looks like a 3012 Pocket Pen. My Bard 3012 is capped 132 mm long and has a diameter of 8.7mm. It is a great writer! Unfortunately I do not trust the pen to be leak-proof. So I won't carry this Pocket Pen in my pocket. I have also a non-Bard 3012 with box and WWI medals from the pen owner.

 

Some photos of the Bard 3012 here:

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85706#p85706

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85875#p85875

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=101200#p101200

 

I used it to sign at the notary once.

 

Cepasaccus, who didn't get the blue-bronze Blackbird today

 

 

Well according to David Moak in Mabie in America, Swan started either in 1888 or more likely 1889 - Moak says "no later than 1889". Later pens carried a reference to the 1895 patent. Apparently George Mabie signed the trademark filings for Swan in 1890.

 

Cob

[Cob]

Cepasaccus,

 

You MUST try harder and buy a BB 2/46

It is a Swan in almost every way. The quality and beauty is that of a Swan. Only the words on the section, feed, nib, clip make it a Blackbird. And mine has a wonderfully flexible nib as well.

 

Yes very handsome: as I wrote above I believe that Mabie Todd really did have some of the loveliest patterns of all.

 

Funny thing about Blackbirds: I have a couple of Blackbird No 3 pens: these are in every way - except the name and the design of the barrel chasing - a Swan Minor No 2; the nibs, stamped Blackbird have heart-shaped breathers and are the same size as a Swan 2!

 

I suppose they were sold at lower prices than the equivalent Swans, which only makes sense I suppose in turnover terms.

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

I think this blue-bronze is the most beautiful color. So I will try harder the next time! Is it only available on Blackbirds?

 

Cob, I believe these patent dates are often misleading and pens are often rather later than sooner. My The Calligraphic has a feed for which the patent date is AFAIR 1889, but on the pen itself is only an unidentified patent date of 1877. Then I have Waterman's Ideal 24 with globe logo and old feed. Globe logo was introduced 1901, new spoon feed latest 1902. So in theory the pen should be from 1901. I believe that pens were longer build and sold than we know. This might be because old stuff was not all sold, production was to lazy to change imprints and other stuff or people wanted traditional stuff.

 

"Mister, we have here our brand new spoon feed! It is much better then the old one."

"Keep your modern stuff! I want the old feed! I know it works reliably and doesn't break!"

 

"I bought 15 years ago this pen." - showing a broken pen - "I want the same pen again. Is that possible?"

 

"This feed has holes in it. I want that of my old pen!"

 

So my Waterman's Ideal 24 might easily be from the later 00s or even the 10s. There is also this filler which Waterman produced for a short time before the lever filler. AFAIK there was still demand for it over 10 years after it vanished from the catalogs. If I remember correctly from schools.

 

My Bard 3012 has btw. exactly the same patent dates as yours. My Co. 3012 has no patent dates and also no 3012 imprint at the end (so I also just assume it is a 3012). The date on the box was "14/12/15". That's either December 15th 1914 or probably December 14th 1915 which would then be probably in the time of the Co. Ltd..

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

I think this blue-bronze is the most beautiful color. So I will try harder the next time! Is it only available on Blackbirds?

 

Cob, I believe these patent dates are often misleading and pens are often rather later than sooner. My The Calligraphic has a feed for which the patent date is AFAIR 1889, but on the pen itself is only an unidentified patent date of 1877. Then I have Waterman's Ideal 24 with globe logo and old feed. Globe logo was introduced 1901, new spoon feed latest 1902. So in theory the pen should be from 1901. I believe that pens were longer build and sold than we know. This might be because old stuff was not all sold, production was to lazy to change imprints and other stuff or people wanted traditional stuff.

 

"Mister, we have here our brand new spoon feed! It is much better then the old one."

"Keep your modern stuff! I want the old feed! I know it works reliably and doesn't break!"

 

"I bought 15 years ago this pen." - showing a broken pen - "I want the same pen again. Is that possible?"

 

"This feed has holes in it. I want that of my old pen!"

 

So my Waterman's Ideal 24 might easily be from the later 00s or even the 10s. There is also this filler which Waterman produced for a short time before the lever filler. AFAIK there was still demand for it over 10 years after it vanished from the catalogs. If I remember correctly from schools.

 

My Bard 3012 has btw. exactly the same patent dates as yours. My Co. 3012 has no patent dates and also no 3012 imprint at the end (so I also just assume it is a 3012). The date on the box was "14/12/15". That's either December 15th 1914 or probably December 14th 1915 which would then be probably in the time of the Co. Ltd..

 

Cepasaccus

That's interesting indeed, but the fact remains that Mabie Todd & Bard ceased to exist in 1907; now Moak does say that some pens marked Mabie, Todd & Bard were produced after that date, but one must remember that there was an 1895 patent.

 

Regarding the blue-bronze of the Blackbird, I have not seen a Swan in that colour; Swan's blue bronze was the 57 colour which is a lot quieter.

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

Which patent from 1895 is that you are referring to?

 

The patent from MAR.6.88 is the patent 378987 for the feeds, but this has IMHO nothing to do with the standard Mabie-Todd split feeds with twisted silver wire. These feeds in 1888 are strange horse hair under feeds. The only suitable patent for the split feed with silver wire is 426692 from APR.29.90, but that is not mentioned on our pens. Unless our pens are both from 1888-90 and got their feed changed later to the split feed, which is quite unlikely, they show that patent dates on pens are quite unreliable. So I see no reason, why a patent from 1895 should be named reliably on a pen. So the range to date our pens is IMHO 1889 (a bit after the date on the pen to be able to change the imprint machine and in the year of the submission of the split feed patent) - 1908 (Company name change and some grace period to change imprint machine).

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

You have made several good points there.

 

I have just looked again at some patent drawings; these i find utterly indecipherable - patent drawings always are with their little letters everywhere and no explanation. Anyway most significantly is that the 1895 patent seems to show the arrangement fo the over/under feed and twisted wire, which my pen certainly has. On the other hand the patent drawing also shows the pen being filled at the nib from an eye-dropper; my pen would definitely not fill like that!

 

Puzzled.

 

C.

[Cepasaccus]

Can you make a photo of your feed?

[Cepasaccus]

I have here photos of two feeds and a drawing of the 1889 patent: http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=84169#p84169

 

The Swan is that which is like yours. This section is the split feed I see (nearly) always in Swans. The section on the image with the patent drawing is a Perry's Alexandra. That feeds looks even more like the patent drawing due to the longer slit.

 

Cepasaccus

[Goudy]

I have Swan eyedroppers with two types of internal wiring:

 

http://i.imgur.com/VOBlfdf.jpg

 

The bottom one is the more familiar type where the wire is just pushed into the barrel end of the feed. I believe it's described as an "agitant".

 

The top one has to do with the nib filling system. The wire goes all the way through the underfeed and attaches to a plug which you can see sticking out of the front of the section. You fill the pen by pulling out the plug and dripping ink from an eyedropper down the nib. You can also (supposedly) adjust the flow by moving the plug up and down slightly, the wire holding it in place.

[Cepasaccus]

The top section has a golden top "feed", hasn't it?

[Goudy]

That's right, a thin metal "overfeed" (not really a feed), almost certainly gold.

 

Here are the filling instructions for that model:

 

http://i.imgur.com/D0AjWVX.jpg

[Cob]

Can you make a photo of your feed?

Yes, here it is - very inky...

 

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

That looks like the normal split feed. On the right side it has that long slit. That feed is in my Bard 3012, Co. 3012, Calligraphic and some others.

 

Cepasaccus