Ink Toxicity?

[tinkerteacher]

Diamine, J. Herbin and most of the modern European inks are vegetable dye based (ever notice that strong veggie smell when you crack open a new bottle of Diamine's), so I wouldn't worry too much about those.

 

It's the Japanese inks, where things are more "relaxed", that you wouldn't want to go drinking.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tinkerteacher

[jasonchickerson]

Here are some photos of FPN's own Plistumi consuming a bottle of Ackerman Voorhout Violet about two years ago after the LA Pen show. She is alive and well, although I did detect a slight violet hue in her irises the las time I saw her.

 

 

The funny thing about liver disease is that, if she develops it ten years down the road, she'll likely not think to include drinking ink as a contributing factor.

[jasonchickerson]

As for phenol, under the name of carbolic we used to wash our babies and ourselves with it, in the form of carbolic soap.

 

Doctors also used to prescribe things like cigarette smoking, cocaine, heroine, LSD, morphine for teething babies, mercury for tooth fillings, etc.

 

We are biological beings. Washing yourself with biocide was and is a bad idea.

Edited April 12, 2015 by jasonchickerson

[tfwall]

Any one know about the danger from the amount of ink one gets handling, filling, cleaning, fountain pens?

 

Talking about ink on fingers. .

 

This is a tricky question to find a definitive answer to.

 

The major ink manufacturers who have invested the most money and effort into making a consistent product also make the most benign inks and offer extensive safety information to the consumer upon request. Boutique makers' inks vary more from bottle to bottle, often use dyes and components outside of the usual stable of compounds and at the same time, offer little or no safety testing or information.

 

Certainly, health effects are one of the things you need to balance when considering which ink is for you.

[ehemem]

It's the Japanese inks, where things are more "relaxed", that you wouldn't want to go drinking.

 

Yep, Iroshizuku Fugu Syogun can be deadly!

 

But I understand it is a sepia to die for...

Edited April 13, 2015 by ehemem

[dcwaites]

 

Yep, Iroshizuku Fugu Syogun can be deadly!

 

But I understand it is a sepia to die for...

 

Do not try to remove ink from a squid that is bigger than you are ...

[F104]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't (some?) Japanese inks the only ones that still use phenol as a biocide? (And isn't phenol an ingredient in the likes of Chloraseptic? A throat spray.)

 

Frankly, I'm a lot more worried about fumes from ink than I am stains from ink. Whether toxic or not, whenever I can smell ink, I wonder if it's irritating my ears, nose, throat and eyes. They get irritated enough.

[Frank C]

Back to some basics: ink is to be put in a fountain pen and used for writing on paper or whatever substrate, but not on skin, let be that is c/should be ingested. Ink is a mixture of chemicals. Use them with care, they should not end up on your fingers. Not the ones that are commercially available (where one could assume them being made by responsable manufacturers), definitely not the home-brew ones. If you pick up recipes from the internet or fora like this or even from government guidelines for making iron gall document inks, you are at your own regarding safety. Do not experiment with chemicals unprepared: if you make your own inks, the best would be to have a chemistry, pharmacy background or anywhere some affiliation with laboratory procedures and safety regulations. Or by self-education, in principle no problem, but if you if you brew your own inks without eye protection and other protective material, I do not consider you educated at all.

 

I know this did not start as something on making your own ink, but if people start considering phenol as a safe chemical it has to be noted that indeed it is used in carbolic soap and in inks at fairly low concentration. But extrapolating its assumed safety and bringing phenol in larger amounts (if you want to make your own inks for instance) is not wise, imagine a broken bottle and cleaning up the waste of a "safe" raw ingredient. Are you prepared? Do you now what to do if something unexpected happens? What if you get splashes in your eyes, on your skin? Need to be convinced? Have a Google search for images with "phenol" and "burns".

 

Is it that bad with inks: no, there is a concentration effect as well. About dyes: "most inks are based on textile dyes, so they should be safe as textile contacts the skin". Fountain pen inks are not used as textile dyes, they can use the same compounds, they could also use others (anyone some regulatory requirements for fountain inks somewhere US or elsewhere? Why should a regulation on textile dyeing apply on fountain pen inks?). Azo dyes come in many flavors, some are considered toxic, others not, carcinogenic properties might be an issue as well. And under illumination chemical bonds might be broken, discoloration can occur, converting a non-toxic ingredient into a toxic one (or vica versa). MSDSs seem rather hard to find (I am only aware of De Atramentis having them on there website after registration I think, but I admit not having searched others, only was glad to know that it is available if needed).

 

If jmccarty is happy to perform some analysis at no charge to the FPN community, that sounds like a very generous offer, may I suggest to come to a motivated consensus on a few inks, given the vast amount of inks available ...

 

As a summary, please don't feel frightened to use or make ink. I feel very comfortable and safe doing it myself. And there might be far more dangerous things like mixing toilet cleaner with bleach that we all know of not to do (probably as a warning on the bottles, if you read them). But hey, ink is to be put on paper, not on your fingers, try to avoid is at much as possible. It are chemicals. Did not want to scare anyone about home-brew ink making either, but if you enjoy your hobby do it safely and well educated about the risks and prepare for accidents before they occur.

 

Happy inking

 

BTW see also the thread on Ink safety started by shufen, Nov 11 2007 15:49, hasa lot of relevant replies.

 

Perhaps you could provide a link to shufen's post. I'm having trouble finding it.

[musicman123]

Do not try to remove ink from a squid that is bigger than you are ...

Expert words of wisdom. I envision this given by an old Asian sage as a metaphor to a youngster ready to leave his hometown and years of training to discover the true meaning of friendship and to face the evils of this world.

Edited April 13, 2015 by musicman123

[PS104]

This is a funny thread given the current vogue of people getting tattoos on any and all parts of their bodies

Or am I to infer that FPN members are not part of the tattoo generation. Just another "thing" besides fountain pens to set us apart from the rest of the world

[kwzi]

The inks about which you should be most suspicious are the rare, hard-to-find ones, particularly from Japan and Poland. Ink makers in those countries do not have government regulators looking over their shoulders as Americans do, and there's no telling what noxious substances they might slip into their inks.

 

Ever heard about REACH and ECHA?

From what I know in US the most restrictive organization is FDA, and they mostly focus only on food and drugs, EPA which manages basically all chemicals is still building their regulations basing partially on REACH, but this is still work in progress because rules are not being yet fully enforced. From point of view of producer from UE, if something is not approved than it is banned. From point of view of producer from US if something is not banned, than it is allowed.

 

Even as a hobbyist ink maker to achieve good results in ink making than I have to work with pure chemicals to have full control on concentrations and somewhat purity of chemicals. Concentration of different substances in inks are far too less to have any effect on health of fountain pen users, they might have negative effect if ingested depending on personal predispositions - in most cases diarrhea caused by dyes and surfactants. In truth I'm most endangered by chemicals that are used in ink making - and from my point of view phenol that was used here as an example of biocide is far to toxic. I'm operating with far more safe chemicals - that have LD50 and TLV values hundreds or thousands time higher than phenol.

 

Backing back to the topic, most dyes soluble in water are amphiphillic, and they have some possibility to travel in to oil systems, but generally in case of traveling through skin barrier they are stuck in stratum corneum.

[jmccarty3]

 

Backing back to the topic, most dyes soluble in water are amphiphillic, and they have some possibility to travel in to oil systems, but generally in case of traveling through skin barrier they are stuck in stratum corneum.

 

kwzi is correct, of course, and I hope he realizes that my post was tongue-in-cheek. The reason ink disappears from our hands is not that it is absorbed internally, but rather that the cells of the stratum corneum shed off, taking the ink with them.

[tinkerteacher]

Ah, I see someone already posted that warning Pelikan put on their inks awhile back, "not a major source of nutrition" or some such.

 

Being vegetable dye based, Diamine, J. Herbin and Pelikan do actually have some very slight nutritional value, so don't consume too much of them if you are watching your figure.

[Sasha Royale]

Any toxic content would bring a overwhelming response from the USDA.

I have yet to see an warning label.

 

Until I invested in rubber gloves, my fingers were ink-stained daily for 40

years. I washed before eating, but the stains didn't wash off easily. I use

to carry a Parker 45 in my jeans pocket. Got stabbed in the bum -- TWICE .

I'm still here, and even sharper and smarter and healthier than the 6-foot

tall rabbit sitting next to me.

 

Don't drink the ink.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sasha Royale

[ScienceChick]

"Ink is a mixture of chemicals"

 

Everything is a mixture of chemicals. Even fearmongers are made of chemicals.

[musicman123]

"Ink is a mixture of chemicals"

 

Everything is a mixture of chemicals. Even fearmongers are made of chemicals.

 

We are all mixtures of chemicals that just happened to come together in exactly the right (write?) place and time for us to enjoy inks. Just food for existential thought.

[dcwaites]

"Ink is a mixture of chemicals"

 

Everything is a mixture of chemicals. Even fearmongers are made of chemicals.

 

Yes, but I'm made of cage-free, free-range organic chemicals...

[ScienceChick]

 

Yes, but I'm made of cage-free, free-range organic chemicals...

 

Oh. Well then, that's alright. Not really chemicals

[El Gordo]

 

Perhaps you could provide a link to shufen's post. I'm having trouble finding it.

 

Shufen's post : https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/44338-ink-safety/?hl=shufen#entry416632

 

Some other interesting info : http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002791.htm

 

It is obvious that this is about ingestion, for inked fingers. Depends on composition. As mentioned elsewhere most of the material stays in the upper skin layer and wears off, same for pigmented stuff unless particles are smaller than about 30 - 40 nm. And chemicals can get through this barrier as well. See for instance the long known effects of earlier mentioned phenol (in likely higher concentrations). http://sp.ehs.cornell.edu/lab-research-safety/Documents/Phenol_First_Aid_and_PPE.pdf

 

Summary : don't worry too much

- mainstream ink is safe if used for the purpose it is made

- never, never drink ink

- if using chemicals in larger amounts for home-brew inks : know what you are doing, chemicals can create burns and penetrate healthy skin, beyond mere toxicity you could also be allergic to some compounds in the ink as well. Does not matter whether the compounds are non-toxic in that case, let be that they are natural or not.

Edited April 14, 2015 by El Gordo

[Frank C]

Thanks for the references. The second link didn't work directly, but I did a Medline Plus search on article # 002791 and it came up.

 

I liked the MSDS references in the first webpage. If I drink ink, it won't be Pelikan!

 

(Edited to fix punctuation and spelling.)

Edited April 15, 2015 by Frank C