What do you use carry if FP not practical?

[Centurion]

Not sure if post belongs here . . .

 

I was at a conference, and I know moving around exchanging info that having my FP would be dangerous. :-) So I carried a Uniball pen that has a hybrid ink (roller and gel). It's a good smooth pen, but I find their blue to be a bit light. Also water resistant (put a sheet of paper written with their ink under the faucet and no ink bled). I also like Pilot's Precise aka the V7 etc. pens., except the ones I buy are V10, which means it has a 1.0mm point. Nice blue color, more like the Navy blue I like. It's not as water resistant as the Uniball hybrid though.

 

Anyway, yes what I predicted happened. Somebody takes my pen and asks if he could use at the same time. See, you're suppose to ask first, then get an answer, followed by taking the pen. It averts an awkward situation, and I wasn't stressed by it because it was just a rollerball.

[wimg]

Hi centurion,

 

I really wonder at times, what people would do or say, when you say: no, please hand it back to me...

 

Of course, over here everybody knows what a fountain pen is, and everybody knows the myth that fps are written in by the owner, so therefore you can't or shouldn't write with it, and they are actually afraid to do so.

 

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't tell them that that story is nonsense...

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Bryan]

Hi centurion,

 

I really wonder at times, what people would do or say, when you say: no, please hand it back to me...

 

Of course, over here everybody knows what a fountain pen is, and everybody knows the myth that fps are written in by the owner, so therefore you can't or shouldn't write with it, and they are actually afraid to do so.

 

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't tell them that that story is nonsense...

 

Warm regards, Wim

OK Wim,

 

I'm totally opening myself up for all to see my ignorance, but are you saying that people really can use my fountain pens and not ruin the way they write? I've been telling people "NO" for years, I seem to have read somewhere that the nib eventually conforms to the owners writing style and that allowing other to write with you pen would throw it off.

 

Honestly, I love to tell people this to keep them from using my good pens.

 

Bryan

[Leslie J.]

For the sake of promoting FP use, perhaps it's better to show someone how to use a fountain pen rather than telling them they obey only one master. The one thing I make sure to do is at least warn people about how to take off the cap, or take it off myself. I think most people, in my experience, handle FP's gingerly at first. Maybe they are afraid of that weird stuff called "ink".

[Titivillus]

 

Of course, over here everybody knows what a fountain pen is, and everybody knows the myth that fps are written in by the owner, so therefore you can't or shouldn't write with it, and they are actually afraid to do so.

 

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't tell them that that story is nonsense...

 

Warm regards, Wim

OK Wim,

 

I'm totally opening myself up for all to see my ignorance, but are you saying that people really can use my fountain pens and not ruin the way they write? I've been telling people "NO" for years, I seem to have read somewhere that the nib eventually conforms to the owners writing style and that allowing other to write with you pen would throw it off.

 

Honestly, I love to tell people this to keep them from using my good pens.

 

Bryan

The great urban pen myth rears it's ugly head again

 

Think about it if someone else 'imprints' you pen then there shouldn't be a single vintage pen that was ever used that can be a good writer for a modern day person!!!

 

 

Unless a person really screws up the pen by pressing like using a ballpoint then sharing a pen should not be a problem.

 

Kurt H

[woodwindmaster06]

Thats just it most people really do press hard when they use it, Ive seen people that just grap one of pens with out asking and write something down, with that very hard ballpoint pressing and I really want to yell at them.

They're just not meant to be used that way

Tim

WWM

[Gerry]

I think the basic reason for the myth is the knowledge that after years of writing, most pen nibs will show some evidence of that wear, and will probably be smoother in the owner's hand than they were before the wear. The corresponding truth - that it would take years of use by someone else to make much of a difference to that bias is usually conveniently ignored.

 

The single exception to this is the case already made about too much force being used, and is true in the extreme case, but to exceed the elastic limit of most nibs - to the point of permanent deformation - would usually involve force that is way beyond what might be exerted by most mature users. I'm hoping that Antonios - our resident materials / mechanical expert will support me here..., but that's essentially why I won't let many 4 year olds play with my FP's, but any reasonably mature adult, and most mature youths would be quite a safe bet.

 

I have adjusted quite a few nibs, and the force needed to effect a permanent deformation (ie to make a change in the nib's writing characteristics) is way beyond what someone would exert in normal writing.

 

Just my opinion though.

 

Gerry

Edited June 5, 2005 by Gerry

[Titivillus]

I think the basic reason for the myth is the knowledge that after years of writing, most pen nibs will show some evidence of that wear, and will probably be smoother in the owner's hand than they were before the wear. The corresponding truth - that it would take years of use by someone else to make much of a difference to that bias is usually conveniently ignored.

Very true and for that matter I don't know if it is that there is a wear point created, that is that there is material removed from the surface, or that any little fingers of metal that might be sticking up would be slowly folded in creating a smooth surface as opposed to actually removing some of the tipping material. I guess since we are talking about iridium and some other alloys in contact with paper lubricated with ink it is just hard for me to believe that you can wear the tip down. This would be a nice think for someone with a SEM to take some photos of modern & vintage tipping material then write for awhile and take more pics. It's always better to have data when talking about something that really can't be seen and is maybe a personal opinion of feel.

 

 

 

Kurt H

[ElaineB]

I've been using fountain pens for about four decades now, and I happily let people handle my pens and try them out. Now, I only own low-end pens -- ones that work nicely and are rugged enough to stick in my purse without worry about damage. But even so, my experience has been very similar to Leslie's. People handle my pens rather gingerly if they aren't familiar with how to use one. In fact, some people pull off the cap and groan, "Hey, don't you have a real pen here I can use?," which I find rather amusing.

 

I've been really surprised by all these destruction-by-colleagues horror stories I've been hearing. I've never had anyone ever damage a pen on me. (Well, until my 3-year-old son grabbed my father's P51 and smashed the nib against the wall... but that was a different sort of horror.)

 

If I had a pen that was so valuable that I was afraid to let it be used by others, then I'd simply keep it home. But then again, I'd probably sell it. It's a philosophical thing for me. I grew up in a home in which my parents were antique dealers and everything in the house had a monetary value that went beyond its function as furniture, dishes, silverware, etc. They had endless worries about burglars and physical damage of one sort or another. We kids were afraid to sit on the couches. We had to be careful when walking on the oriental rugs. God forbid we should chip one of the kitchen dishes when we were loading the dishwasher! It felt like we were being owned by the posessions, rather than the other way around. They created more trouble than pleasure.

 

So now as an adult, if I end up with an object that is supposed to be a functional addition to my life (not art) but it's too valuable to be used freely, then I quickly replace it with something less worrisome. As I said, this is just my own philosophy. But I like the freedom of seeing a gleam of interest in a colleague's eye when I open one of my pens, and handing it to him with a happy grin so he can try it out.

 

ElaineB

[wimg]

Hi Elaine,

But I like the freedom of seeing a gleam of interest in a colleague's eye when I open one of my pens, and handing it to him with a happy grin so he can try it out.

I think this is where you hit the nail on the head, regarding people who want to try out things or borrow things. You hand it to them, they don't just grab it, while you're absent or present.

 

This means they ask for it, rather than take the privilege for granted.

 

I'll blast anyone who will just take my stuff without asking, to be very honest. I am always open to show them, and let them try with a little guidance. My limits lie with people just taking the pen and starting to try and open it, normally pulling when it has to be unscrewed. They won't try a second time...

 

Just my opinion, of course

[wimg]

Hi Kurt,

Very true and for that matter I don't know if it is that there is a wear point created, that is that there is material removed from the surface, or that any little fingers of metal that might be sticking up would be slowly folded in creating a smooth surface as opposed to actually removing some of the tipping material.  I guess since we are talking about iridium and some other alloys in contact with paper lubricated with ink it is just hard for me to believe that you can wear the tip down.

You can wear the "tip" down on a drill bit, can't you? Even when it is lubricated and cooled with liquids of all sorts. You're talking here about diamonds, which are harder than iridium, because they are the same things used to cut the tipping and the nib, in two halves.

This would be a nice think for someone with a SEM to take some photos of modern & vintage tipping material then write for awhile and take more pics.  It's always better to have data when talking about something that really can't be seen and is maybe a personal opinion of feel.

I can assure I have worked on vintage nibs that had flat spots from writing with them. They would only write in a single position, single angle, after having been used for maybe 30-odd years. Incredibly easy to see, even with the naked eye. And I can assure you too, that nobody ever did any tricks with mylar on them either.

 

You can compare this too bearings in a motorcar. They are greased, they are made of very durable material, and they wear down too. Generally fairly evenly, because they turn around. Now imagine rubbing a bearing ball only one one side over 30 or 40 thousand kilometres? Nothing left of it, I would say, if it will ever get that far, even with lubrication. This is what you do when writing. Now, just calculate the surface in contact with paper, and then calculate the pressure, taking in account that the pressure force is anywhere between about 40 and 200 grams.

 

It is actually amazing that an instrument like a fountain pen writes at all, and lasts that long...

 

HTH, warm regards, Wim

[Gerry]

Yes Wim, that was the point of my post - and without pressing the point too hard, I think people should actually think of paper as an abrasive. Of course, with many different kinds of papers, it is hard to generalize with a specific or particular hardness, but it is surprisingly abrasive.

 

If you ever really want to hear a protest of rage - try taking a seamstress'/ tailors best shears/scissors and cut paper with them. They protect their edges much like chef's do their knives. In our house, there are scissors I'm not allowed to use. Even though I must sharpen them occasionally... <_< We have a deal - she doesn't use my chisels to open paint cans, and I don't use her scissors.

 

The definition of harmony.

 

Gerry

[Titivillus]

Hi Kurt,

You can wear the "tip" down on a drill bit, can't you? Even when it is lubricated and cooled with liquids of all sorts. You're talking here about diamonds, which are harder than iridium, because they are the same things used to cut the tipping and the nib, in two halves.

 

Yes but a drill bit is going at a high rate of speed and is in contact with a substance harder than paper. The lubrication doesn't really matter much. but the amount of force is different.

 

I can assure I have worked on vintage nibs that had flat spots from writing with them. They would only write in a single position, single angle, after having been used for maybe 30-odd years. Incredibly easy to see, even with the naked eye. And I can assure you too, that nobody ever did any tricks with mylar on them either

.

 

Do you know what the tipping material was made of and if the pen was used by one person as their only pen. An SEM can answer both of these questions. I thought maybe some data rather than just individual experience but in any case it seems that after 30 or so years of action on the tip it will wear down, not just someone borrowing it for a brief use.

 

 

You can compare this too bearings in a motorcar. They are greased, they are made of very durable material, and they wear down too.... This is what you do when writing. Now, just calculate the surface in contact with paper, and then calculate the pressure, taking in account that the pressure force is anywhere between about 40 and 200 grams.

 

No I think that the forces involved are different by orders of magnitude or if you are putting that much force on the tip then it's probably going to mechanically fail before wearing off.

 

 

But I might be wrong about the whole thing.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

My two-year old Parker Reflex has a flat spot on its nib too. It is very noticable, so the pen will only write at one angle. Curious, I do not push down on that pen at all, I just let the weight of the pen do the work.

 

If I go out, I bring a ball pen and my Reflex. I lend the ballpoint to people and use the Reflex.

 

Dillon

Edited June 5, 2005 by Dillo

[wimg]

Hi Kurt,

Yes but a drill bit is going at a high rate of speed and is in contact with a substance harder than paper.  The lubrication doesn't really matter much. but the amount of force is different.

Yes, but the principle is the same.

 

Do you know what the tipping material was made of and if the pen was used by one person as their only pen.

Yes, good quality iridium tipping in most cases, and a heirloom in all cases, used by a single person, normally the grandfather or the grandmother of the person I was fixing the pen for. And nobody else ever wrote with it.

An SEM can answer both of these questions.  I thought maybe some data rather than just individual experience but in any case it seems that after 30 or so years of action on the tip it will wear down, not just someone borrowing it for a brief use.  

Yes, that is true, but I only tried to show it does wear. I am never worried about anybody trying my pen for a sentence or two .

 

No I think that the forces involved are different by orders of magnitude or if you are putting that much force on the tip then it's probably going to mechanically fail before wearing off.

Hmm, you're talking of, let's say, on average 100 grams of force on a surface of an F, let's say 0.15 mm square. Thats awesome when you convert that to pressure. And I am talking pressure here, not force. Obviously, the force on a drill bit is much higher than on a pen, obviously, with all the weight on top of it.

 

But I might be wrong about the whole thing.

So could I . I am not a mechanical engineer...

 

Warm regards, Wim

[wimg]

Hi Gerry,

In our house, there are scissors I'm not allowed to use.  Even though I must sharpen them occasionally... <_<  We have a deal - she doesn't use my chisels to open paint cans, and I don't use her scissors.   

 

The definition of harmony.

 

Gerry

So you only use them for opening food cans? <GDR>

 

Warm regards, Wim

[wimg]

Hi Dillon,

Hi,

 

My two-year old Parker Reflex has a flat spot on its nib too. It is very noticable, so the pen will only write at one angle.

 

If I go out, I bring a ball pen and my Reflex. I lend the ballpoint to people and use the Reflex.

 

Dillon

I've noticed this too on modern Parkers. The ones I have tried only write well at an angle of about 80 degrees to the paper. I am assuming they try to cater for ballpoint abusers...

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Dillo]

Hi Dillon,

I've noticed this too on modern Parkers. The ones I have tried only write well at an angle of about 80 degrees to the paper. I am assuming they try to cater for ballpoint abusers...

 

Warm regards, Wim

Hi,

 

80 degrees? Mine only writes at 35 to 40 degrees.

 

Dillon

[Apollo]

I do the same as Dillon. I tend to carry more than one writing instrument these days and if someone asks to borrow a pen, I hand them a ballpoint or rollerball. Never my fountain pen. It's not because I'm afraid they'll damage it, it's because some people just don't know what to do with it. For example, I was at a bank a few months ago and someone asked to borrow my pen to jot something down. At the time I was carrying only a fountain pen and I handed him my Waterman Phileas. His reply was "nice pen" but looked confused and asked, "how do you write with this thing?" Since most people are so used to writing with ballpoints (at least in the United States), I now carry one or two pens in addition to my fountain pen.

[wimg]

Hi Dillon,

I've noticed this too on modern Parkers. The ones I have tried only write well at an angle of about 80 degrees to the paper. I am assuming they try to cater for ballpoint abusers...

 

Warm regards, Wim

Hi,

 

80 degrees? Mine only writes at 35 to 40 degrees.

 

Dillon

Hi Dillo,

 

Just try, and see if it doesn't write at 80-90 degrees too.

 

Or are you talking "vintage" Sonnet?

 

Warm regards, Wim