Pen Position Vs. Flex Nib

[FloatingFountain]

Hi

 

Since some time, I am considering to purchase a Richard Binder full flex nib to be used in one of my pens, but I'm unsure if I should. I do have experience with springy and somewhat flexy nibs, but not with full flex.

 

The question I have is one about pen position.

 

This site basically says that the pen position should be perpendicular to the writing direction, with the nib pointing to the top edge of the paper.

 

Long story short: I can't write like that. My natural pen position is an even more extreme version of what that site calls incorrect. Please see the attachement.

 

 

So, the paper is rotated counter-clockwise, and the pen points directly at the upper left corner when writing. The left arrow, pointing to the lower left, is my natural downstroke. If I would be using a stub nib, that line would be thin. Thus, my downstroke is actually a cross stroke. The stroke and the nib position are perpendicular.

 

The right (jagged) arrow is a "real" downstroke, with the stroke and nib being in line; I never use this stroke.

 

Thus my question is: Would it be possible to use a flex pen for the occasional flourish (capital letters, and such), without changing my natural writing position, or is a flex nib completely and fully wasted with my style of writing?

 

(This style of cursive writing was what I was thought in school over 25 years ago, in The Netherlands, and I still write the same as back then, aside from small changes, mainly when writing capitals.)

[ac12]

You can, but the line variation would not look "normal."

As you said if you used a stub/italic the thick/thin lines are reversed, so as long as you are not really concerned with looking normal.

 

My own hold is somewhat similar to yours, maybe a little more vertical and less angled to the left. But I am writing from the right side as you do.

I do this with my stub italic nib, and my eye sees line variation, so it looks nice.

It isn't until my head starts to look a the lines that I can see it isn't like an ideal thick on the down and thinner on the cross. But my readers don't know this, only I do.

In my case, when I do flex, I use a flex dip pen nib in an oblique holder. The oblique holder corrects for my grip and the nib is aligned with the downstroke, so the downstroke is max flex. IOW, I abandoned the idea of flex fountain pen, and went to flex dip pen with an oblique holder.

[barleycorn]

What you have described is a normal alignment of pen and paper that works with regular cursive writing. As illustrated in the picture,the down strokes line up with the angle of the pen from top left to bottom right. This also will generally work with a stub/italic nib by rotating the axis of the loop slightly forward.

 

Generally, this does not work with a flex nibs because it works best the down stroke is in line with the pen not the letter. If you try to widen the line from top right to bottom left the tines will catch on the paper. This is the reason for using an oblique nib/holder with a dip nib. It will align the down stroke parallel to the slant of the letters - approximately 35 degrees slanted to the right in Copperplate.

 

So, you can either slant your paper to the right and learn to write vertically or continue as you are and not be able to get much thickness on the left side of the letters.

[Tojusi]

I have been experimenting with my handwriting recently. The Finnish style of cursive writing or should I even say longhand* that I learned long ago is somewhat similar to what FloatingFountain presents in the original post. Plus I have been writing so that my hand is "ahead right and slightly below" where my pen is, basically, writing like FloatingFountain.

 

I have now been experimenting with moving my hand more to "under" the pen and writing like set out more up/down like in the website linked to in the original post. Not using flex, mind you, but stubs and italics.

 

I have a pretty decent handwriting as it is, but changing my style... Oh man, I now have this beautiful vintage handwriting with stubs! I just love it.

 

 

* Footnote: The longhand I learned in school is called "kaunokirjoitus" in Finnish. Literally translated this translates to "beautiful writing" which I think is quite poetic in both languages.

[Mauricio]

FloatingFountain,

 

Great answers and options provided above by fellow FPN members.

 

The writing angle you are currently using would certainly provide a less than ideal and inadequate flex writing experience because the left tine will get more pressure than the right tine when flexed, creating what is called "lateral flex forces" against the nib tines. Flex nibs do not handle lateral flex forces very well, especially in the hands of an unexperienced flex writer. Flex nibs were not designed for such lateral forces. The tines will easily become misaligned, one tine will be trying to overlap (snap) on top of the other, getting eventual ink splashes onto your work, starvation of ink flow at the end of the tines due to a constricted slit (which transport ink onto the tipping of the nib), getting a scratchy writing experience, etc. The more flexible the nib and the thinner the lines it can produce, the more critical the issues above will become if the flex nib is used improperly. Once you get into the side and circular strokes, it will be very hard to control that nib, and the scratchy experience will be more prevalent. A very flexible nib with ultra thin lines can be damaged with a few of those improper strokes.

 

Should you not feel it is worth to attempt to use the proper holding techniques, I would suggest you get a flex oblique nib. The obliqueness in the tipping of the nib should help you compensate for some of the nib rotation you are currently using. However, even an oblique nib has a sweet angle for ideal use. If that angle does not match your writing angle, that nib will not perform well either.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Mauricio

[FloatingFountain]

Thanks for all the answers

 

It seems I did well to ask about this issue, as I was in doubt about ordering this nib. It seems it would be an giant waste of money, and a disappointment in writing as well.

 

I now have a ProGear, which didn't write out of the box (no comment...), and I fixed it myself by aligning the nib, setting the wetness to my liking, and then smoothing it with a few figure 8's on 12000 grit sandpaper. It's now a perfect fit for my way of writing. The extreme angle of writing and paper rotation is because of my poor eyesight; I lean down over the desk. I can't just sit up and change the hold on the pen.

 

What I'm looking for is not flex per se, but a bit of line variation, whlie retaining the smoothness of my Sailor nib. I would like the downstroke line to be no wider than Sailor Medium (which is comparable to Sheaffer/Waterman Fine).

 

Would it be possible to have a rounded italic / stub nib made (they are the same, aren't they? Just to make sure...), that has a XF or maybe XXF on the cross stroke, and F on the down stroke? (XXF, XF and F in Western measurements.)

Edited December 11, 2014 by FloatingFountain

[Tojusi]

 

Would it be possible to have a rounded italic / stub nib made (they are the same, aren't they? Just to make sure...), that has a XF or maybe XXF on the cross stroke, and F on the down stroke? (XXF, XF and F in Western measurements.)

 

Check out this thread about small stub pens and people who fancy such small stubs: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/279291-small-stub-lovers-unite/

Edited December 11, 2014 by Tojusi

[FloatingFountain]

Thanks I like what I see in those threads. I'm now definitely leaning towards a fine point, remodelled to a stub

 

I'd like the cursive italic even more due to more line variation, but it seems they can be quite scratch when created from anything smaller than broad... not to mention the sharp italics.

[ac12]

Maybe a right oblique stub might work for you.

[FloatingFountain]

Maybe a right oblique stub might work for you.

 

Indeed; it would "unreverse" the down and cross strokes with my style of writing, but these nibs need quite a specific angle during writing. I have to order this nib from the USA, so there is no way for me to test anything. I'd rather go with a nib that will surely provide 80% or 90% of what I would like best, than a nib that either provides 100% if it works for me, or 0% if it doesn't.

[BookCat]

Your way of holding your pen will naturally 'thin' the wider part of a stub/italic nib, making it seem finer than it is. Try a 1.1mm stub/italic, such as that made for the Lamy Safari (this is a true italic with sharp edges), or perhaps experiment by purchasing one of the Manuscript Calligraphy starter sets.

 

It's best to start cheap just to test whether you like writing with italic/stub nibs.

[ac12]

 

Thanks I like what I see in those threads. I'm now definitely leaning towards a fine point, remodelled to a stub

 

I'd like the cursive italic even more due to more line variation, but it seems they can be quite scratch when created from anything smaller than broad... not to mention the sharp italics.

 

The finer stubs will require more attention to ink flow and ink selection.

Too much ink flow and you will not see the line variation between H and V strokes. So you will likely need to have a dryish nib.

The wider stubs are more forgiving for ink flow and ink selection.

 

As BookCat said, best to try it out, to see how you like it. Here are some inexpensive options:

• Lamy with a 1.1mm nib
  • (This is NOT a true italic nib, the edges are not sharp)
  • This is what I have; Vista and joy.
  • have to buy the converter separate
• Pilot 78G with a B nib, about a 1.1mm stub
  • comes with a converter
• Nemosine Singularity 0.6 and 0.8mm stubs.
  • But I have read questionable QC reports of their pens.

gud luk

[BookCat]

Lamy with a 1.1mm nib

• (This is NOT a true italic nib, the edges are not sharp)

 

The one I bought was sharp, maybe they differ.

 

The OP could also try the Pilot Pumix, which is a reasonable price, or the smaller Pluminix.

[sidthecat]

As a left-handed over-writer I'm finding it easier to "pull" strokes if I write with the nib facing towards me. Some nibs like that angle, some like it rotated a little more or less. My Togi Naginata, on the other hand, won't put up with such treatment and insists on being pushed. I'm fascinated by the individualism of all these nibs, even when they're from the same maker.

[caliken]

Sitting square-on to your desk, turn the paper counter-clockwise so that the slope line is at right angles to your body. Point the flex nib at the slope line to enable the tines to open evenly.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/A4Page9700.jpg