Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[Lazard 20]

"Why would pen makers coat the entire inside of both caps and barrels with shellac?"

 

Not, entire not, only in the contact zones as section/barrel or at the end of barrrel fixing "crown" of lever plate(more nozzle / sac and lever pin and inner cap sometimes) already discussed where ambering is accentuated. The rest of the barrel, to a lesser degree, is reached by the same evaporation and, in their case, by particles detached

 

You're seeing it every day on the surfaces of contact barrel / section when, precisely by being in contact, not reach the rubber sac gaseous evaporation so easily, on contrary is where are most ambering preciselly because there are more shellac, of course. Also you can see in the test with the plastic eye-dropper that I have photographed in previous entries. I have provided sufficient visual documentation to this and other topic about this matter.

 

On another hand indeed I agree with you, the DARKENING is due to the passage of time and effects of light rays (before I uploaded photos with Sheaffer´S pure celluloid bars that have not contact with sac or shellac and were also obscured) and the rubber sac... but AMBERING is because amber shellac.

 

Alcohol and celluloid -or hard rubber- never had good relationship; alcohol more dyes pigments worse.It makes no sense to mix it and add to our fountain pens.

 

I'm sure to limit the use of shellac contributes to lower ambering (because pigments) and lower dryness (because alcohol) and cracked at the mouth of the barrel and lips cap. So that's what I would recommend to collectors for their fpens reach their grandchildren in better shape.

 

Addenda. David, this difference of opinion does not prevent me to acknowledge your interesting contributions, as Daniel and Roger, to Pendom.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

The notion that this darkening is due to shellac makes no sense. Why would pen makers coat the entire inside of both caps and barrels with shellac?

 

Lazard has made the claim that mechanism involved is that as the solvent (alcohol) in the liquid shellac evaporates, it transports shellac throughout the area and deposits it all over the interior of the pen.

 

There are several reasons this hypothesis fails. First, as I've noted repeatedly, nearly all the evaporation takes place within the first few hours after application, and therefore nearly all the discoloration that would occur through this evaporation would appear within the first few hours after application -- yet, of course, it does not; the ambering generally develops over a timeframe measured in years.

 

The hypothesis also fails due to a simple volume calculation. If the ambering that we see consists of particulate shellac, it would represent at least ten times as much shellac as was originally applied, and, of course, there would also be dramatic depletion of the shellac in the area to which it was originally applied. And, as Lazard himself has shown, the amber material is not merely an ultra-thin surface layer -- it extends to significant depth into the walls of the pen:

 

 

Clearly, when an entire barrel has amber material throughout its length and to this depth, it would represent a quantity of shellac orders of magnitude greater than the single, thin layer originally applied to affix a sac or to secure a section.

 

Therefore, the hypothesis that evaporating alcohol deposits vast quantities of shellac -- but only after a period of years -- is simply wrong, and provably so.

 

--Daniel

[RMN]

Daniel

 

I am neutral to the outcome of this ongoing somewhat heated discussion.

 

In your above statement you overlook one option: that shellac particles are deposited together with the alcohol, bond with the barrel material, where over time, due to contact with ink, air, humidity and other substances the particles start acting, as a catalysing agent.

 

Whether that is so, or not, I do not know, but it is an option. Alas a test is difficult, as a test started now would only give results in many years.

 

 

D.ick

[Roger W.]

I like that he sawed an old pen in half.

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Daniel

 

I am neutral to the outcome of this ongoing somewhat heated discussion.

 

In your above statement you overlook one option: that shellac particles are deposited together with the alcohol, bond with the barrel material, where over time, due to contact with ink, air, humidity and other substances the particles start acting, as a catalysing agent.

 

Whether that is so, or not, I do not know, but it is an option. Alas a test is difficult, as a test started now would only give results in many years.

 

 

D.ick

 

This proposed mechanism of ambering is completely different from what Lazard has claimed. He has specifically stated that shellac is responsible for the ambering, because the amber-colored material is, in fact, shellac. So, I am not overlooking the alternative hypothesis you put forth, as that is not the hypothesis that I am addressing. To be clear, Lazard has repeatedly said that the amber material is not merely celluloid that has changed color; he has specifically claimed that because the material is amber in color, and because shellac is amber in color, the amber material is, in fact, shellac.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I like that he sawed an old pen in half.

 

Roger W.

 

Me too. It made it that much clearer that the hypothesis was false.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Shellac is COLOR amber -no amber stone-. Shellac is the dilution of this ANIMAL EXCREMENT with high dyeing power and ALCOHOL.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerria_lacca

 

Again, I can not recommend its use in the XXI century.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Roger W.]

Wait a second! We aren't supposed to seal sacs on with shellac? This is a new one to me.

 

Roger W.

[Lazard 20]

Twists and knot with cotton thread, for example.

[Roger W.]

Twists and knot with cotton thread, for example.

You have got to be out of your mind. Shellac is the proven way to adhere a sac to the nipple. Until your theory has any traction with anybody that really knows what causes discoloration, which it clearly never will, I will file your theory where it belongs - in the garbage.

 

Roger W.

[Vintagepens]

I am neutral to the outcome of this ongoing somewhat heated discussion.

 

In your above statement you overlook one option: that shellac particles are deposited together with the alcohol, bond with the barrel material, where over time, due to contact with ink, air, humidity and other substances the particles start acting, as a catalysing agent.

 

Whether that is so, or not, I do not know, but it is an option. Alas a test is difficult, as a test started now would only give results in many years.

 

Your open-mindedness is praiseworthy, but do keep in mind that as far as I can tell, the only person who believes in Lazard's theory is Lazard.

The "heat" in this discussion comes from the frustration of all the other participants, who convincingly address every aspect of Lazard's theory yet cannot get him to reconsider.

 

A test is not so difficult: as I have already noted, I and many others have been using shellac to seal celluloid pens for decades, with not the slightest sign of resulting discoloration.

 

And though no one has yet pointed it out, it's pretty clear that when shellac dries, the alcohol evaporates and leaves the shellac itself behind. Shellac doesn't go airborne any more than drying paint does.

[Vintagepens]

This Onoto vacuum filler never had sac but have ambaring in zones threads.

 

http://s30.postimg.org/a411akw2p/PIC_1010.jpg

 

 

I should also point out that the deterioration of any soft rubber part can cause discoloration of celluloids, not just ink sacs. That includes Vacumatic diaphragms, plunger-filler piston seals (as with the Onoto shown above), and the rubber disks originally mounted at either end of Wahl inner caps.

 

In the case of this Onoto, the reactive rubber deterioration byproducts have darkened the barrel, excepting the thicker portion at the back end. They have also escaped through the feed into the cap; the greater degree of darkening at the top of the cap is characteristic, and results from the trapping of the sulfur compounds where there is the least opportunity for ventilation. Note that the area of greater darkening on the barrel corresponds not with the section threads inside, but rather with the area covered by the cap when the pen is closed. This is the result of the gases released into the cap accumulating between the cap and barrel. Since their action is here on the outside of the barrel, the discoloration is especially pronounced.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Vintagepens

[kirchh]

 

And though no one has yet pointed it out, it's pretty clear that when shellac dries, the alcohol evaporates and leaves the shellac itself behind. Shellac doesn't go airborne any more than drying paint does.

 

In my defense, I did allude to this ("and, of course, there would also be dramatic depletion of the shellac in the area to which it was originally applied").

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Shellac is COLOR amber -no amber stone

 

No one has claimed it is "amber stone." Why do you correct something that no one has said?

 

 

-. Shellac is the dilution of this ANIMAL EXCREMENT

 

Just to be clear, I think you meant "excretion."

 

 

with high dyeing power

 

No evidence has been presented to support this claim, not that it would bear on the correctness of the central hypothesis.

 

Still waiting for a direct answer to my direct question:

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals instruct repairmen to apply shellac on the threads that secure the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown in your post?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

 

I should also point out that the deterioration of any soft rubber part can cause discoloration of celluloids, not just ink sacs. That includes Vacumatic diaphragms, ...

 

This point should be reinforced, and furthermore it is important to note that Vacumatics generally don't have any shellac in the filler area, yet their barrels amber significantly in the barrel region adjacent to the diaphragm.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

"...so it is up to YOU to explain how an identical discoloration can occur in an area that is not being touched by shellac."

 

I would have preferred that it was discovered by yourself but well, here it is. They possibly, maybe, put shellac on the crown of the plate lever to be fixed and not be moved.

 

No. Sheaffer did not apply shellac to the pressure bar's "crown," nor did they advise repairpeople to do so. This is easily verified by examining pressure bars that come out of pens; I have pulled countless examples, and they have not been secured with shellac. They are quite tightly secured in place by the spring action of the rear end of the piece.

 

Therefore, the ambering at the rear of Sheaffer barrels is not due to shellac on the adjacent parts. Your hypothesis is incorrect.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

You have got to be out of your mind. Shellac is the proven way to adhere a sac to the nipple. Until your theory has any traction with anybody that really knows what causes discoloration, which it clearly never will, I will file your theory where it belongs - in the garbage.

Roger W.

 

 

About "You have got to be out of your mind" I will not make special comments to this but you should reflect about your interest in interacting with people that YOU think are out of their mind.

 

Well, we get down to topic.

 

Are not you going to present a single argument about "Shellac is the proven way to adhere a sac to the nipple"?

I will present one on contrary by association; precisely garbage is where Parker sent the shellac in the 30s ... until someone have recovered it from there.

 

Parker already realized in the second half of the 30s the harms of shellac and alcohol, thereafter we will find not shellac but a white cement.

 

Anyway Parker already before 1940 recommended to keep away alcohol from his Permanite. Why you do not listen Parker´s experience?

 

 

 

 

 

In the first Parker Vacumatic Service Manual I've seen, edited October 1933, says nothing about the contact surfaces barrel section/threads so both, Parker and repairmen Dealer's, continued to use shellac as habit and as they had read on previous Service Manual. Therefore ambering found in the mouth of the barrel too as at the end of the barrel which can be easily seen in the first transparent Junior f.e.

 

The following Service Manual Parker leaving the shellac in favor of a new "white cement" and from then we do not find ambering (amber color) on vacs... although they continue to have diaphragm.

 

Afther first Vacumatic Service Manual:

 

 

 

Vacs continue mounting diaphragm. Why are there more ambering (color amber) during shellac use and much less or nothing when it is replaced by Cement Vacumatic? or, Why they changed it?

 

For Daniel: "excrement" have differents meaning (in Spanish at least has three meanings) to which one I mean is irrelevant for ambering. You'll know what sense have this question.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

Posted Today, 02:29

 

Vintagepens, on 23 Aug 2014 - 00:06, said:

 

 

 

I should also point out that the deterioration of any soft rubber part can cause discoloration of celluloids, not just ink sacs. That includes Vacumatic diaphragms, ...

 

This point should be reinforced, and furthermore it is important to note that Vacumatics generally don't have any shellac in the filler area, yet their barrels amber significantly in the barrel region adjacent to the diaphragm.

--Daniel

------------------------------------- oo0oo ---------------------------------------

 

Daniel, please, let me smile.

 

I) Your statement is false and contradictory according with experience. One hundred vacs I've repaired of the first time had at the bottom of the barrels, a lot of shellac. Not only in the threads fill / barrel unit (Parker Service Manual reproduced below) but even at the junction of the diaphragm with the metal part of the unit (Parker and / or previous repairmen) and, because shellac/stickiness and/or phenol lubricant, diaphragm area where it extends / contracts which, incidentally this rubber, is often left attached to the walls of the barrel, and

 

II) Your statement is false and contradictory according to contents of Parker´s protocols: "Before inserting a new filler unit apply a little shellac to the threads".

 

III) Consequently your estatesment, contrary to observations and contrary to the Parker´s written documentation, could not be more false.

 

 

 

 

The beach awaits me. There are enough points of views, photos, and industry fpens docs in order to FPN users can choose to use or not shellac. For me, for now, I give the matter ended. Happy weekend!

Edited August 23, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Vintagepens]

Vacs continue mounting diaphragm. Why are there more ambering (color amber) during shellac use and much less or nothing when it is replaced by Cement Vacumatic? or, Why they changed it?

 

That is flatly wrong.

If shellac were the cause of the darkening on Vacumatics, one would NEVER see darkening of the threads or section area of Vacuum-Fillers, since there is no section joint -- the section and barrel are one-piece, machined out of a single piece of celluloid stock. Yet this area is commonly found discolored, due to the penetration of ink over time, and the action of gaseous sulfur compounds released from within the barrel and flowing back over the forepart of the barrel after flowing into the cap.

And one consistently sees that the area of maximum darkening on Vacs is not where shellac would have been applied, but directly over the location of the sac (diaphragm).

 

Your citation of Parker's recommendation that "a little shellac" be applied to the filler threads further undermines your argument. If this shellac were responsible for darkening, the maximum darkening would appear at the very end of the barrel, directly over the filler threads. Yet this area is typically the *least* discolored part of the barrel.

 

If Parker (or other penmakers, or indeed the celluloid manufacturers) really did realize that shellac discolored pens, you can be sure they would have warned repairmen about its risks in clear and unambiguous terms. Parker's adoption of "Vacumatic cement" had nothing to do with discoloration, and everything to do with the desire to have a sealant for a threaded celluloid-on-celluloid joint that would release with minimal heating, and would not risk inadvertent solvent-welding of the joint by too free an application of too-dilute shellac. Parker service manuals continue to specify the use of shellac for other applications, including slip joints and threaded joints where at least one of the mating surfaces is not alcohol-soluble.

 

I must say, your tenacity in defending your shellac hypothesis is impressive. Unfortunately, at this point your argument has become circular. Wherever you see darkening, you posit the presence of shellac, even when all the evidence contradicts it.

[kirchh]

Posted Today, 02:29

 

Vintagepens, on 23 Aug 2014 - 00:06, said:

 

 

 

I should also point out that the deterioration of any soft rubber part can cause discoloration of celluloids, not just ink sacs. That includes Vacumatic diaphragms, ...

 

This point should be reinforced, and furthermore it is important to note that Vacumatics generally don't have any shellac in the filler area, yet their barrels amber significantly in the barrel region adjacent to the diaphragm.

--Daniel

------------------------------------- oo0oo ---------------------------------------

 

Daniel, please, let me smile.

 

I) Your statement is false and contradictory according with experience. One hundred vacs I've repaired of the first time had at the bottom of the barrels, a lot of shellac. Not only in the threads fill / barrel unit (Parker Service Manual reproduced below) but even at the junction of the diaphragm with the metal part of the unit (Parker and / or previous repairmen) and, because shellac/stickiness and/or phenol lubricant, diaphragm area where it extends / contracts which, incidentally this rubber, is often left attached to the walls of the barrel, and

 

II) Your statement is false and contradictory according to contents of Parker´s protocols: "Before inserting a new filler unit apply a little shellac to the threads".

 

III) Consequently your estatesment, contrary to observations and contrary to the Parker´s written documentation, could not be more false.

 

Parker shellac threads.jpg

 

 

The beach awaits me. There are enough points of views, photos, and industry fpens docs in order to FPN users can choose to use or not shellac. For me, for now, I give the matter ended. Happy weekend!

Yet again, you intentionally misread what has been written. We are specifically discussing the ambering that is commonly observed adjacent to the diaphragm, yet the diaphragm was not secured with shellac. Therefore, shellac is not responsible for this ambering. Your hypothesis fails. Again.

 

How disappointing.

 

--Daniel