Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[GG917]

I'm always amazed by people contradicting professional repairmen who handled more pens than you can dream of.

 

From the point of view of an organic chemist: you hypothesis that alcool brings "shellac particules" inside the barrel is all wrong. Shellac is a resin which will not sublimate. When the shellac dries, the alcool which is the solvent, evaporates leaving the shellac (resin) behind. It does not brings shellac with it. It turns into gaseous alcohol and that's it. The resin is of way too high molecular weight to sublimate under normal condition.

 

Rubber materials, either they be sacs, diaphragms or sections, deteriorate over time releasing sulfur and related compounds. Those compounds have the potency to react with celluloid, causing the discoloration.

 

If Parker advised again using alcohol into vacumatics, it is because alcohol dissolve celluloid. That's it.

 

On your guess that discoloration on thread are due to the section being shellacked to the barrel. It is just because the section is into contact with the barrel. Reaction with the sulfur-containing degradation compounds is easier. The tiny amount of shellac does not offer a barrier to them.

 

I hope this helps.

[Joe in Seattle]

I have a 5-30 Balance in Jade that looks new. Perhaps, it was never used. But it is a beautiful writer and I really enjoy it.

[Lazard 20]

I'm always amazed by people contradicting professional repairmen who handled more pens than you can dream of.

 

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

 

(Excuse me, I´ll use capital letters because my editor does not work well for underlining or colored)

 

"PEOPLE" TESTED ENOUGH FPENS ABOUT THIS AMBERING TOPIC. YOU CAN SEE MANY OF THEM HERE,graphic evidence as usual, not mere words, THIS PRESENTATION IS VERY VISUAL, IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER, WITH MANY PHOTOS AND YOU WILL LIKE (In gratification, besides fpens, You can see other curiosities as George S. Parker with a Spanish cannon, or a 1911 Picnic Parker´s family, or the impressions of Lloyd Wright after visiting Stonehenge, Parker´s home too).

 

http://estilograficas.mforos.com/1176620/11340618-mis-parker/

http://estilograficas.mforos.com/1176622/11366892-mis-sheaffer-s/

http://estilograficas.mforos.com/2095705/11360044-mis-conklin/

 

 

YOU HAVE TO ADD THE MANY THAT I HAVE SOLD AND REPAIRED TO THIRD PARTIES AND OBSERVED SPECIFICALLY ON EBAY OR PEN SHOWS AND IMPORTANTS PRIVATE COLLECTIONS.

 

From the point of view of an organic chemist: you hypothesis that alcool brings "shellac particules" inside the barrel is all wrong. Shellac is a resin which will not sublimate. When the shellac dries, the alcool which is the solvent, evaporates leaving the shellac (resin) behind. It does not brings shellac with it. It turns into gaseous alcohol and that's it. The resin is of way too high molecular weight to sublimate under normal condition.

 

FOCUS ON SHELLAC CONTACT IF YOU WANT.

 

 

 

Rubber materials, either they be sacs, diaphragms or sections, deteriorate over time releasing sulfur and related compounds. Those compounds have the potency to react with celluloid, causing the discoloration.

 

 

PERHAPS, BUT CERTAINLY NOT THE AMBERING (COLOR AMBER TENDENCE)THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING

 

If Parker advised again using alcohol into vacumatics, it is because alcohol dissolve celluloid. That's it.

 

 

INTER ALIA, SO I´M TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU... BUT KNOWING THIS, WHY YOU WANT TO FOLLOW INTRODUCING ALCOHOL (more animal excrements = shellac) ON THIS FPENS?

 

On your guess that discoloration on thread are due to the section being shellacked to the barrel. It is just because the section is into contact with the barrel. Reaction with the sulfur-containing degradation compounds is easier. The tiny amount of shellac does not offer a barrier to them.

 

TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU BECAUSE YOUR CLAIM IS CONTRARY TO THE OBSERVED.

 

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

I HOPE THIS HELP THE SAME OR MORE:

 

DURING MONTHS WHITH SHELLAC CONTACT AND NO CONTACT

 

 

 

DURING YEARS WHITHOUT SHELLAC

 

 

 

This fountain may, perhaps, to obscure... but ambering is more difficult, is not it?

 

Although I will not do it, someone might think that I could to paraphrase: "I'm always amazed by people contradicting professional repairmen who handled more pens than you can dream of."

Edited August 24, 2014 by Lazard 20

[GG917]

"If Parker advised again using alcohol into vacumatics, it is because alcohol dissolve celluloid. That's it.


INTER ALIA, SO I´M TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU... BUT KNOWING THIS, WHY YOU WANT TO FOLLOW INTRODUCING ALCOHOL ON THIS FPENS?"

 

Sorry this one was a typo: if Parker advised AGAINST" instead of "AGAIN"

[Vintagepens]

Please note that Lazard's picture of the transparent 51 shows a modern "fantasy" pen, not a vintage demonstrator. The plastic parts are made of acrylic, which is extremely difficult to stain more than very superficially, even intentionally. This picture has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

 

Note, too, that the picture of the soft polyethylene dropper also has no relevance, since it too is not made of celluloid. Furthermore, the reason why it is the color of shellac is because there is a layer of shellac stuck to its inner surface (I have a polyethylene shellac dispenser on my workbench that is very similarly coated). That layer of shellac can easily be removed by washing it off with alcohol, after which the polyethylene will be as clear as it started out.

[Lazard 20]

Please note the first Radite celluloids took a long time for to dry fully, Radite it was dilutable in alcohol and very porous for gases and dyes particles especially inside barrels where the surface is not polished.

 

The last photos shows too the distribution, or not, of shellac in a transparent closed container regardless of recipient.

 

I must say, your tenacity in defending your ambering sac hypothesis is impressive. Fortunately, at this point your argument has become circular, exempt from testing and orphan of graphic documentation.

 

You do not want to accept that what you see in this last photos; that one is ambering and the other not independently they can be cleaned or not.

 

If you think that alcohol is so good for cleaning ambering, you can to clean all Radite barrels where section touches the barrels (if you scratch the barrel wall you can get shellac) with alcohol and see what happens (not recommended).

 

Please note what shellac and their highly dyeable amber particles -and black sac particles- makes inside the Radite recipients already been specifically photographed before in this topic.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

DURING YEARS WHITHOUT SHELLAC

 

 

 

Thank you for providing such a perfect example of your lack of understanding of logic.

 

Here, you make the following argument:

 

Because a Lucite pen without shellac does not show ambering, therefore ambering in a celluloid pen must be due to shellac.

 

I hope I don't have to explain the glaring logical fallacy here.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Please note that Lazard's picture of the transparent 51 shows a modern "fantasy" pen, not a vintage demonstrator. The plastic parts are made of acrylic, which is extremely difficult to stain more than very superficially, even intentionally. This picture has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

 

Actually, it does; the celluloid breather tube is ambered from exposure to deteriorating diaphragms.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

 

From the point of view of an organic chemist: you hypothesis that alcool brings "shellac particules" inside the barrel is all wrong. Shellac is a resin which will not sublimate. When the shellac dries, the alcool which is the solvent, evaporates leaving the shellac (resin) behind. It does not brings shellac with it. It turns into gaseous alcohol and that's it. The resin is of way too high molecular weight to sublimate under normal condition.

 

FOCUS ON SHELLAC CONTACT IF YOU WANT.

 

 

Thank you, Lazard, for finally conceding that as the organic chemist explained to you, your hypothesis that evaporating alcohol transports shellac particles is all wrong. Therefore, you must now agree that, at a minimum, none of the observed ambering in areas of celluloid pens that are not in direct contact with shellac, is caused by shellac. Because it's chemically impossible.

 

Thanks again for finally abandoning your argument in this regard.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

FOCUS ON SHELLAC CONTACT IF YOU WANT.

 

I want.

 

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals state that there is shellac on the threads of the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

Because if you're not making that claim, you therefore concede that the ambering seen here is not due to shellac.

 

Thanks.

 

--Daniel

[Vintagepens]

OK, time to sign off on this particular exercise in futility.

 

Lazard is not going to be convinced, no matter what.

 

For all those reading this thread, it should be abundantly clear by now what's what.

 

Final reminder: as noted previously, I and many others still own celluloid pens that we personally sealed with shellac 15-20 years ago or more, none of which have shown any sign of ambering as a result.

[Lazard 20]

Thanks.

 

--Daniel

Is nothing, you're welcome.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Is nothing, you're welcome.

 

Final reminder: as noted previously, I have sealed fpens with cotton and none of which have shown any sign of more ambering as a result or damaged celluloid because alcohol, nor more brittle and nor contain animal excrements inside.

 

Another splendid demonstration of your failure to grasp elementary principles of logic.

 

Again, you make the claim that because some pens were assembled without shellac and do not show ambering, this proves that shellac causes ambering.

 

Consider what David Nishimura has written:

 

 

I and many others still own celluloid pens that we personally sealed with shellac 15-20 years ago or more, none of which have shown any sign of ambering as a result.

 

And, of course, you have not contested what the organic chemist has explained -- that evaporating alcohol (nearly all of which evaporates within hours of shellac's application) cannot transport particles of shellac Therefore, you no longer claim that the ambering seen throughout the barrels of some celluloid pens was caused by shellac.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

... nor contain animal excrements inside so there are not animal metabolic wastes near the hand that writes.

 

What a strange comment.

 

Does it bother you that shellac is made from a substance secreted by insects?

 

--Daniel

Edited August 24, 2014 by kirchh

[Lazard 20]

Another splendid demonstration of your failure to grasp elementary principles of logic.

 

Again, you make the claim that because some sac pens -section/barrrel not?- were assembled with shellac 15 - 20 years and do not show MORE ambering -without a simple demonstration by your part, as usual-, this proves that as shown in pictures is not caused by shellac despite written and visual evidence on contrary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another spectacular demonstrations of your failure to grasp elementary principles of logic:

 

Because you and other install a little actual shellac in sublimated and dry celluloid in 2000, more shellac 90 years ago and alcohol in connection with new and fresh manufactured celluloid could not cause ambering.

 

Other one; If I have failure to grasp elementary principles of logic implies, according to your logic, that shellac and alcohol does not cause ambering in contact with fresh and porous first celluloids and that I am blind to see the shellac particles glued inside the barrel where are more ambering.

 

This one is very good too: Shellac with alcohol is not a excrement, then shellac with alcohol in contact with first celluloids does not cause ambering. !Brilliant!

 

Let see other; you make the claim that you and other have been assembled during 15 - 20 years with SAC and shellac and do not show ambering... and this is not proves that preciselly SAC NOT causes ambering?.

 

Let see more; caught "in fraganti" -lying?- by denying not only that everyone watches, even if it is written in manufacturers Manuals that you know... and we also, what has been your penalty.

 

Here your -lying, or in any case false- claim:

 

"IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT VACUMATIC GENERALLY DON´T HAVE ANY SHELLAC IN THE FILLER AREA"

 

The Truth that disassembling your claim here:

 

 

I return your thanks Daniel.

 

 

Final reminder: as noted previously, I have sealed fpens with cotton yarn and none of which have shown any sign of more ambering as a result or damaged celluloid because alcohol, nor more brittle ... nor contain animal excrements inside so there are not animal metabolic wastes near the hand that writes if you keep the original shellac (thanks newly Daniel).

Edited August 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[RMN]

Lazard makes a logical mistake (as happens often):

 

 

there is shellac on a certain place |

|----------> therefore shellac causes ambering.

there is ambering on a certain place |

 

This is a wrong assumption. There could be many other reasons for ambering.

 

The assumption: [ there has been ink in the pen + there is ambering: ----> ink causes ambering ] would be similar, and obviously wrong.

 

As Daniel and David have indicated, the amount of shellac is so little it can not explain extended ambering in some pens.

 

 

D.ick

[Lazard 20]

No, not exactly, what I have said has already been written but your limited list forces me to interve again.

 

In a non-exhaustive list, we would say well:

 

there is shellac on a certain place |

 

there is shellac where fpen manufacturers Manual Service those past years say |

 

there is ambering on THESE SPECIFIC certain place and where Manual say |

 

Shellac is a very dying product |

 

Shellac contains alcohol (motivates "transparencies" in these cels very similar to those found in many areas of contact section / barrel or "certain place")|

 

 

 

Tests have shown that shellac ambering a plastic capsule even a polished surface|

 

In the sac contac zones we see darkening but not ambering |

 

We're talking about not fully cured celluloid with porous surface and not polished barrel areas |

 

Alcohol dissolves especially the first celluloid |

 

There are more ambering in areas where are more shellac |

 

Shellac is color amber and ambering is color amber tendence |

 

When Parker replaced shellac by "white" Vacumatic cement ambaring practically disappears |

 

Against this evidence has been provided nothing just mere words |

 

|----------> therefore Alcohol is not good for my fountain pens and shellac have alcohol and shellac causes more ambering than sac in the first celluloids during years 20s and 30s, while the rays of light, the simple passage of time and the components of the sac contributed to the darkening.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Another splendid demonstration of your failure to grasp elementary principles of logic.

 

Again, you make the claim that because some sac pens -section/barrrel not?- were assembled with shellac 15 - 20 years and do not show MORE ambering -without a simple demonstration by your part, as usual-, this proves that as shown in pictures is not caused by shellac despite written and visual evidence on contrary.

 

 

 

How dishonest.

 

The area in which shellac is in direct contact with the inside of the barrel is under the barrel threads. Yet, even in your own pictures, your arrows point to the area below that, where shellac is not in direct contact with the barrel. Therefore, your own pictures prove your hypothesis false.

 

You have already conceded that, as the organic chemist explained, evaporating alcohol cannot transport particles of shellac throughout the barrel (or cap) of a pen. Therefore, you have already agreed that your hypothesis is wrong, and that the ambering seen in non-contact areas cannot be due to shellac. This includes the ambering seen in both of your photos above. Note, specifically, that the jade barrel is not ambered in the area covered by your label reading, "COLORS OF REMAINS AND PARTICLES," yet that's exactly where the section tenon would be shellaced to the barrel mouth.

 

And what about the Duofold barrel in your photo (second pen from the right)? It is ambered throughout. You have already conceded that the organic chemist is correct and that this ambering cannot be due to the transporting of shellac particles in evaporating alcohol. Therefore, the ambering seen in your Duofold barrel is not caused by shellac. Thank you again for providing the data that proves that your hypothesis is wrong.

 

Another spectacular demonstrations of your failure to grasp elementary principles of logic:

 

Because you and other install a little actual shellac in sublimated and dry celluloid in 2000, more shellac 90 years ago and alcohol in connection with new and fresh manufactured celluloid could not cause ambering.

 

You have already conceded that evaporating alcohol cannot transport particles of shellac and thus cause ambering. Your only remaining claim is that shellac causes ambering in the areas to which it is directly applied or with which it is in direct contact. Thank you again for your concession and for abandoning your original claim.

 

Other one; If I have failure to grasp elementary principles of logic implies, according to your logic, that shellac and alcohol does not cause ambering in contact with fresh and porous first celluloids and that I am blind to see the shellac particles glued inside the barrel where are more ambering.

 

I agree; you are blind to this, because the examples you show have ambering below the area in which the barrel is in direct contact with shellac from the section tenon.

 

But thank you again for abandoning your hypothesis that areas not in direct contact with shellac can have shellac deposited on them via the evaporation of alcohol. Your concession means that you now agree that a different mechanism is responsible for ambering.

 

This one is very good too: Shellac with alcohol is not a excrement, then shellac with alcohol in contact with first celluloids does not cause ambering. !Brilliant!

 

This is what is referred to as a "straw man" logical fallacy. You are attributing to me a claim I have not made, then you attack the claim you fabricated. This is dishonest, but that no longer surprises me.

 

What you need to keep in mind is that you have already withdrawn your hypothesis that shellac in one part of a pen can cause ambering in another spot. You have already conceded that the organic chemist is correct, and that your claim that evaporating alcohol (most of which evaporates with hours) transports shellac is wrong. But I appreciate that you have withdrawn your claim.

 

Let see other; you make the claim that you and other have been assembled during 15 - 20 years with SAC and shellac and do not show ambering... and this is not proves that preciselly SAC NOT causes ambering?

 

I didn't make that claim, and I didn't see anyone else make that claim. Please provide a quote where I claim that I assembled pens with sacs and shellac 15-20 years ago and that these pens do not show ambering.

 

 

Let see more; caught "in fraganti" -lying?- by denying not only that everyone watches, even if it is written in manufacturers Manuals that you know... and we also, what has been your penalty.

 

Here your -lying, or in any case false- claim:

 

"IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT VACUMATIC GENERALLY DON´T HAVE ANY SHELLAC IN THE FILLER AREA"

 

The Truth that disassembling your claim here:

Parker shellac threads.jpg

 

How dishonest. We were specifically discussing the area adjacent to the diaphragm in a Vacumatic filler, where the greatest ambering is observed. Again, I must note that you have withdrawn your claim that ambering is caused by the transport of shellac particles by evaporating alcohol. Therefore, you agree that the ambering seen in Vacumatic barrels in the area adjacent to the diaphragm is not caused by shellac. And, therefore, this ambering is caused by some other mechanism.

 

 

Final reminder: as noted previously, I have sealed fpens with cotton yarn and none of which have shown any sign of more ambering as a result or damaged celluloid because alcohol, nor more brittle ... nor contain animal excrements inside so there are not animal metabolic wastes near the hand that writes if you keep the original shellac (thanks newly Daniel).

 

"so there are not animal metabolic wastes near the hand that writes" -- does it bother you that shellac is produced by an animal, and that it might be near your hand?

 

But let's keep the key point in mind: You are no longer claiming that shellac can be transported by evaporating alcohol. Therefore, you no longer claim that areas of pens not in direct contact with shellac can be ambered due to the use of shellac. Therefore, you now agree that shellac is not responsible for the ambering commonly seen throughout the barrels of vintage pens.

 

Thank you for admitting that, at long last.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

No, not exactly, what I have said has already been written but your limited list forces me to interve again.

 

In a non-exhaustive list, we would say well:

 

there is shellac on a certain place |

 

there is shellac where fpen manufacturers Manual Service those past years say |

 

there is ambering on THESE SPECIFIC certain place and where Manual say |

 

Shellac is a very dying product |

 

Shellac contains alcohol (motivates "transparencies" in these cels very similar to those found in many areas of contact section / barrel or "certain place")|

 

SheafferS ambarizado.jpg

 

Tests have shown that shellac ambering a plastic capsule even a polished surface|

 

In the sac contac zones we see darkening but not ambering |

 

We're talking about not fully cured celluloid with porous surface and not polished barrel areas |

 

Alcohol dissolves especially the first celluloid |

 

There are more ambering in areas where are more shellac |

 

Shellac is color amber and ambering is color amber tendence |

 

When Parker replaced shellac by "white" Vacumatic cement ambaring practically disappears |

 

Against this evidence has been provided nothing just mere words |

 

|----------> therefore Alcohol is not good for my fountain pens and shellac have alcohol and shellac causes more ambering than sac in the first celluloids during years 20s and 30s, while the rays of light, the simple passage of time and the components of the sac contributed to the darkening.

 

I think you have forgotten that you no longer claim that evaporating alcohol can transport shellac, as the organic chemist explained to you.

 

Therefore, the ambering seen throughout the barrel of such pens as the Duofold and the Sheaffers on the left in your picture cannot be caused by shellac.

 

 

Just a friendly reminder.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

I think you have forgotten that you no longer claim that evaporating alcohol can transport shellac, as the organic chemist explained to you. Daniel.

 

Our friend organic chemist has understood only a little and has proven nothing. He is very far from proving that the diffusion process, as is named, propagated through the air or diffused through the celluloid itself was not possible.

 

 

 

Our organic chemist as a scientist he can not think that we believe in simple words. About his seriousness we expect an demonstration -yours too about ambering causes- so while he prepare the demonstrative formula to prove that this diffusión through air and by celluloid itself is not possible against the reality observed, focus on it. Shellac contact in the mouth of the barrel section/barrel, somewhat lower in the nozle/sac/barrel or contact at the end of the barrel in thread of Vacumatic filler unit.

 

There is shellac on a certain place |

 

there is shellac where fpen manufacturers Manual Service those past years say |

 

there is ambering on THESE SPECIFIC certain place and where Manual say |

 

Shellac is a very dying product |

 

Shellac contains alcohol (motivates "transparencies" in these cels very similar to those found in many areas of contact section / barrel or "certain place")|

 

SheafferS ambarizado.jpg

 

Tests have shown that shellac ambering a plastic capsule even a polished surface|

 

In the sac contac zones we see darkening but not ambering |

 

We're talking about not fully cured celluloid with porous surface and not polished barrel areas |

 

Alcohol dissolves especially the first celluloid |

 

There are more ambering in areas where are more shellac |

 

Shellac is color amber and ambering is color amber tendence |

 

When Parker replaced shellac by "white" Vacumatic cement ambaring practically disappears |

 

Against this evidence has been provided nothing just mere words |

 

|----------> therefore Alcohol is not good for my fountain pens and shellac have alcohol and shellac causes more ambering than sac in the first celluloids during years 20s and 30s, while the rays of light, the simple passage of time and the components of the sac contributed to the darkening.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Lazard 20