Tooth Vs Scratch Vs Feedback Vs Noisy, Accurate Definitions?

[KBeezie]

First off I'm nearly Deaf (and no it's not something like loud music, etc, just born that way), so it seems there's a certain audible component to when someone says such and such nib has a tooth to it, or it's scratchy or it's got feedback or no feedback.

 

Anywho this is the 'definitions' I've come up with, but I need clarification to see if it's the correction definition.

 

For Me,

 

Tooth:

Generally speaking it seems like it just means either the nib has some resistance from the paper, or that it has an 'audible' feedback, or that you can just feel the texture of the paper, I haven't gotten one exact meaning for tooth as whenever I ask someone they seem to have a different interpretation of it.

 

Scratchy:

For this I feel like if I say a nib is scratchy I'm not talking bout just the feeling of the paper but literally being stopped in my track, that movement is restricted so much I feel like I'm scratching up the paper and can't make an even glide with various strokes.

 

Feedback:

For this one, I just figure if I say a nib has some feed back, just means I can feel the paper under it (which I prefer on some pens), movement is not restricted by the paper so it's not scratchy, so I can feel the paper while still being able to move smoothly.

 

Noisy:

Guessing this is strictly an audible description. For example I've heard some comment that the Fine Nib on my Faber-Castell is very smooth (it's the smoothest nib I have in a western fine), but that it's very noisy, as in the nib gives a very loud audible noise while writing despite being very smooth.

 

My Ideal Combination

I prefer a very smooth nib, but I don't like the feeling of "Glassy Smooth" or writing-on-plastic smooth, I like being able to feel the paper under the nib, but I don't like the paper resisting my movement. For example my Montblanc 225's fine nib (which writes close to a Japanese extra-fine/fine), I can feel the paper under it, which some might call scratchy, but my writing just glides, it's not resisted by the paper at all, where as my Platinum PTL-5000 which is a tiny bit thinner has maybe close to the same feedback in feeling, but my movement is resisted on the same paper as in I can't glide as nicely using the same amount of pressure or movement, which also restricts faster movement. (and yes it's aligned).

 

But I kind of like the 'springiness' that both give, sort of I guess what you'd call 'soft'.

 

So would I call something like that being "Smooth with some feedback"?

Edited May 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[Pickwick]

Your descriptions are pretty accurate, and made me think about what individuals within this generation are looking for in a nib. having grown up with the ballpoint, gel pens and other derivations.

 

I grew up in a generation still using pen and ink and the ballpoint pen was still in the throws of becoming reliable. Now, with the need for paper to be developed mainly for laser and inkjet printers. These have a bearing how a nib behaves.

 

The writing papers I remember had a "Tooth", this was necessary to enable pencils to release their graphite on to the paper. But that paper was just as good for writing with a fountain pen on both sides. Plus there was stationery paper produced in large quantities especially designed for writing letters, which was a major means of communicating.

 

Your descriptions of tooth, scratchy, feedback and noisy, were all the elements my generation took for granted.

[AndrewC]

Good definitions. You should try an Aurora nib. They are known for being quite a smooth ride, yet having some feedback, also referred to as having a some tooth. A nice tactile sensation of pen on paper. You can have pens that glide in one direction, but when moved one way or another will feel scratchy. Some nibs feel that way no matter which direction you move. Japanese EFs are often said to feel scratchy, but I think that is because they are just so small.

 

Noisy; some pens make a scritching noise on paper, and some practically rumble. With a narrow nib I expect some sound, but when a FP sounds like a fine tip dip pen, then I don't like it. Some pens squeak or creak, which is not good.

 

Springiness, to me, is a little different than soft. Springiness implies there is some bounce-back, whereas I feel "soft" can mean the nib is just that-soft. Kind of like a new racquetball versus a really old one. I find using a soft nib is harder for long stints of writing, and causes my carpal tunnel syndrome to flare up. I have a couple modern "flex" nibs like the Stipula Titanio in a Model T and a Pilot Falcon nib-both said to be soft, but they feel mushy to me, with very little snapback. So, Springy=GOOD, soft? Not so much. Kind of like firm vs nail. Nail? CHeck out an old Sheaffer OS Balance or OS Flat Top.

 

Seriously, if you like Smooth with some feedback, get your hands on an Aurora Optima or large modern 88.

Edited May 8, 2014 by AndrewC

[KBeezie]

Good definitions. You should try an Aurora nib. They are known for being quite a smooth ride, yet having some feedback, also referred to as having a some tooth. A nice tactile sensation of pen on paper. You can have pens that glide in one direction, but when moved one way or another will feel scratchy. Some nibs feel that way no matter which direction you move. Japanese EFs are often said to feel scratchy, but I think that is because they are just so small.

 

The bold explains nearly exactly what I mean, the 'tactile' sense of it. Basically something other than seeing it on paper that lets me know I'm in contact with the paper. Also in regards to one direction being smooth and the other scratchy, whenever I encounter a feel like that I'm always checking for alignment, if it's the same both directions then I just consider it overall scratchy (like something the outer edges of the nib).

 

Springiness, to me, is a little different than soft. Springiness implies there is some bounce-back, whereas I feel "soft" can mean the nib is just that-soft. Kind of like a new racquetball versus a really old one. I find using a soft nib is harder for long stints of writing, and causes my carpal tunnel syndrome to flare up. I have a couple modern "flex" nibs like the Stipula Titanio in a Model T and a Pilot Falcon nib-both said to be soft, but they feel mushy to me, with very little snapback. So, Springy=GOOD, soft? Not so much. Kind of like firm vs nail. Nail? CHeck out an old Sheaffer OS Balance or OS Flat Top.

 

That's understandable, essentially what you're saying is springiness tends to have a quicker recovery from being depressed, it's not hard-as-a-nail, but it's not so forgiving to pressure. So you kind of have it giving some 3-dimensional feedback back towards you, rather than being like a paint-brush.

 

Where as soft is as you just said, 'soft', doesn't spring back instant, just feels like the tip has some 'cushion' to it.

 

All my Sheaffers are pretty firm, so I know that feeling, and I don't mind them for certain occasions ('47-'49 Craftsman with a #33 Nib, '51 Touchdown with a Feathertouch Accounting Nib, '53 Snorkel Admiral with a Medium nib). The Balance is one of the ones on my 'wish list' in terms of adding to the sheaffer collection.

 

For me soft vs springy vs nail really depends on what paper I'm planning on using, and what kind of writing position I'm going to be in (desk, clipboard, lap?)

 

Seriously, if you like Smooth with some feedback, get your hands on an Aurora Optima or large modern 88.

 

I'll keep it in mind, I didn't see any Aurora over at Goulet (where I had a credit to spend), last night I ended up going with a Pilot Falcon with a Soft Fine, primarily because it was a kind of nib and body style that I had not yet tried in my collection, and I suspect it's 'softness' would be a similar feel to my Montblanc 225 or Pilot Elite (big cap from 70-80s), but with a bit more emphasis on the soft.

 

Far as carpal tunnel goes, I'm working on various activities to help that, since I'm constantly on the computer, but for the last two semesters in college I've been taking American Sign Language (something I should have learned as a kid, but my dad didn't allow it in the house, so it was basically speech therapy and lip reading growing up), and I'm enrolled in ASL3 this coming fall. The classes has *a lot* of writing in them (more than I care for), mainly journals, reviews, etc, and I had been using fountain pens for notetaking and journals for the last semester (around february onward) in both ASL2 and Fingerspelling.

 

So between those 3 activities (computing, writing, and sign language), it'll probably be enough of a variety to keep the muscles strong in more than just one way.

 

But I'll definitely look into an Aurora for a future purchase (perhaps after I sell a couple pens that are on the bottom of my usage list).

[Stu L]

Interesting.

 

I'd add to tooth that, rightly or wrongly, I thought of tooth as when the paper nib combo has some influence on the stroke I put onto the page.

You can see an exaggeration of this if you use a pencil on heavily textured paper and try to draw a curved line. The tip will deviate slightly back and forth throughout the stroke, leaving a shaky line.

 

I always think of this as tooth, and have one pen that lays lines a bit like this on all but the highest quality paper.

Its not scratchy though and never catches on the paper...

[KBeezie]

Interesting.

 

I'd add to tooth that, rightly or wrongly, I thought of tooth as when the paper nib combo has some influence on the stroke I put onto the page.

You can see an exaggeration of this if you use a pencil on heavily textured paper and try to draw a curved line. The tip will deviate slightly back and forth throughout the stroke, leaving a shaky line.

 

I always think of this as tooth, and have one pen that lays lines a bit like this on all but the highest quality paper.

Its not scratchy though and never catches on the paper...

 

 

I suppose if we were to revise the list based on your input you'd have something like.

 

Tooth : How the nib/paper combo influences the 'control' over movement (ie: does the paper guide the nib's direction somewhat?)

Feedback: The tactile response from the nib/paper combo, can you feel the paper texture, or is it like writing on a plastic surface?

Scratch : unpleasant resistance to movement and tactile feedback, not just 'guiding' but impeding the direction you wish to go.

Noisy : audible...

[JulesSilvan]

The confusing thing to me here is that in art terminology the texture of the paper is referred to as 'tooth'. The more texture it has, the more tooth it has.

 

I would agree with your definition regarding pens though. 'Tooth' with pen and paper suggests to me a controlled feeling of feedback.

[KBeezie]

The confusing thing to me here is that in art terminology the texture of the paper is referred to as 'tooth'. The more texture it has, the more tooth it has.

 

I would agree with your definition regarding pens though. 'Tooth' with pen and paper suggests to me a controlled feeling of feedback.

 

Primarily because when I hear it discussed (like when I'm doing a back and forth with someone one about a pen), the pen is sometimes described as having a bit of a tooth, but they never specify paper, so I have to assume they're talking bout whatever paper they like to use which is of course going to vary wildly from person to person. some of my pens might have quite a bit of tooth with certain mead or officemax notepads but next to none on a Rhodia dotpad, if it were defined by paper.

Edited May 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[h.farmawi]

very nice, Thanks alot that helped me a lot like i didnt know what feedback means! thanks again.

[Stu L]

I think its all a bit subjective.

 

There are also likely to be a lot of instances where a user identifies that they don't like the writing experience, but can't necessarily determine why. This is either going to be due to the ambiguity of the terms we use, or that people are experiencing a mixture of characteristics in one pen.

Lots of feedback and audible?

Toothy one direction and scratchy another?

[KBeezie]

I think its all a bit subjective.

 

There are also likely to be a lot of instances where a user identifies that they don't like the writing experience, but can't necessarily determine why. This is either going to be due to the ambiguity of the terms we use, or that people are experiencing a mixture of characteristics in one pen.

Lots of feedback and audible?

Toothy one direction and scratchy another?

 

Course for some users such as myself, audible doesn't even factor... like at all.

 

Which means If I start reviewing something and someone asks me about how noisy it is... or if it sings... I can't answer lol.

Edited May 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[Tenkai]

Mike Masuyama told me through email about feedback from pens when writing, assuming the nib is smooth/aligned, is actually vibration from the nib produced from writing, transferred up to the pen and to your hands.

 

He also mentioned that steel nibs then to produce more vibrations than gold nibs in general.

 

I have tried pens with gold nibs as well as steel nibs. I have found my favourite to be steel nibs followed by 14k nibs. When they are smooth, they provide just enough feedback to make me feel I have control without it being annoying, I.e. Preppy nibs can be smooth but gives too much feedback, Platinum 3776 steel nibs are real nice though

[owend]

Not an expert, but my definitions:

 

Tooth: where you feel some resistance from the nib moving over the paper - obviously the more textured the paper, like art cartridge paper, the more tooth.

 

Feedback: the feel you get from the resistance of the nib on the paper, letting you feel how the pen is writing, related to tooth. I enjoy feeling some feedback.

 

Scratchiness: more than tooth, I would define it as where the nib actually catches on the paper, from a slight jerkiness through collecting paper-fluff, to digging a hole in the paper.

 

Noise: the sound of the nib on the paper. I find it's a result of several things: the paper's surface, how many sheets under the one I'm writing on, and the desk/table surface etc. I like some sound!

[Bo Bo Olson]

"""He also mentioned that steel nibs then to produce more vibrations than gold nibs in general.""""

 

Interesting....my grand steel nibs like my Osmia ones equal their grand gold ones. I guess I was not looking for it, nor using a rough enough paper.

I am not going to ink a slew of pens to test that....been trying to get down to 5 pens for ages now have only 12 13 inked. A pen came back from repair...

 

Then again I have some nail steel nibs that are just as dead as my gold nails. A nail is a nail.

 

A fine poster said tooth was like writing with a pencil.

 

There has been some fine answers here.

 

I do or did have a nib that sang....don't remember which one it was...was not bad. It will eventually echo away.

Singing swords....will after a short while stop singing..from my reading....there are very good sword makers today that occasionally luck into a singing sword. Weeks to months vs life time of Prince Valant's sword. But a singing sword or razor is possible. The French still make a razor that can sing if you have luck.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[JulesSilvan]

Another thought occurs to me. Feedback would be akin to a good quality pencil with a high graphite content, smooth enough but with control whereas 'scratchy' would be more like a cheaper pencil with a high clay content, tends to catch more on the paper.

Edited May 8, 2014 by JulesSilvan

[Bookman]

This is very helpful. I thought "tooth" and "feedback" meant you liked what you felt/heard and "scratchy" meant you didn't.

[Mardi13]

This is helpful for me too. I have been wondering specifically about noise being good/bad if there isn't anything else really bothering me about the pen as I write. The fact that some pens are just noisy is a relief. And it seems that what each person wants to feel when they are writing indeed highly individual, and that I shouldn't be hunting the Snark Of The Ideal Feel.

[Oranges and Apples]

Very well explained but for my preference is as follows:

 

Tooth: Unfavorable

 

Scratchy: Unfavorable

 

Feedback: Unfavorable

 

Noisy: Unfavorable

 

In other words, the less I have of each category, the happier I would be with the nib.

[owend]

I can see where Oranges and Apples is coming from, but for MY preference, I like a bit of feedback which probably means a bit of tooth, no scratchiness, and I'm not really bothered about noise - I like to hear it but it wouldn't bother me by its absence.

 

As I understand it, only scratchiness is likely to take away from a nib's performance, the other three are preferences but the nib/pen would still be acceptable.

 

It's also true of course that the same pen has different combinations of the four factors depending on the paper, ink, situation (eg desk as opposed to notes in the open air on a handheld notepad with a breeze and some rain and cold hands in winter...), who's using it, how heavily it's being pressed, etc.

 

And of course no-one's touching on paper, ink, wetness/dryness of nibs.... Next thread?

[Bo Bo Olson]

Very well explained but for my preference is as follows:

 

Tooth: Unfavorable

 

Scratchy: Unfavorable

 

Feedback: Unfavorable

 

Noisy: Unfavorable

 

In other words, the less I have of each category, the happier I would be with the nib.

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Butter smooth can be had in many nails....IMO rather boring and not fun....but butter smooth.

 

I do like a nice springy ride...and that in a bit less than butter smooth.....good and smooth....there is no drag there, and it's not butter smooth slick either.

 

Butter smooth is too much for Clairefontain Triumphe. ...and a couple other better slick papers.

 

Many over the years graduate to good and smooth...the level under Butter Smooth....that allows one to feel the paper.

Some even go for a bit of tooth...after a while....and not with every pen either.

 

Butter Smooth does save one from needing to learn about good to better papers.

Yep.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson