"standard" Vs "luxury" Brands

[bbshriver]

The title here may be a little misleading, and the topic is a bit wandering so try to bear with me here..

 

What I'm titling "standard" pens would be the equivalent of vintage Parkers. Top quality pens with a range of prices. "Luxury" I'm thinking more of S.T. Dupont, Cartier, Montegrappa etc.

 

Quesiton is are the luxury pens actually going to be a better pen than something like a Parker/Waterman/Shaeffer etc, or just "fancier". It's hard to argue with the only pen company to have 2 royal warrants (Parker).

 

Also, not to create another "tier" thing, but what would be the accepted difference between standard and luxury? Certainly Parker and Waterman currently and historically have made "luxurious" pens, and ST Dupont makes pens with SS nibs.

 

I'm pondering buying a 40's era Parker 51 to complement my 70's 75, but also seen some ST Dupont and Cartier etc on Ebay that were intriguing.

 

[Opooh]

I am surprised Montblanc wasn't mentionned.

[Mr. Pink]

 

Quesiton is are the luxury pens actually going to be a better pen than something like a Parker/Waterman/Shaeffer etc, or just "fancier".

Fancier, yes. Better? Seems like most of the people here write just as well with less expensive pens. But it's all a matter of how the pen makes you feel.

[jar]

The two Parkers you mention were consider top tier pens in their day and priced accordingly. While neither Cartier nor ST Dupont were offering fountain pens in the 40s they were by the end of the "75" era and at only a small premium over what a high end "75" would cost.

 

The difference was not just fancier (you can't get any fancier than many low end pens and fancy was always seen as an alternative marketing strategy to quality) but rather in attention to detail, quality of materials used and additional 'craftsman' labor. If you look at an ST Dupont or Cartier fountain pen from today or from the 70s you will find that the parts that do not normally show are as finished as those that are seen. Just open or close an ST Dupont and experience how the cap tends to self-center as it slides on until it docks with a satisfying 'click'.

 

Sure, there are far more hamburgers sold and people who are satisfied with hamburger than those desiring Prime aged steak and if someone is happy with hamburger and mystery meat then it's pointless to pay for Prime aged steak.

[Ron_L]

I'm no expert for sure. For me, pens, like all collections, are subject to the owners discretion. Everyone has different tastes and choices. Money of course is a factor in what you can or are willing to buy. How you go about acquiring the pens will determine what you get and what you pay. If you shop on line you may find a deal, but probably not as great of one if you browse thrift stores, garage sales or Estate sales. But it's all about the quest! Have fun.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ron_L

[CrimsonM]

Luxury prices do not increase performance or make it a "better" pen its ridiculous. I would only consider buying more expensive ones if they're literally art like the maki-e pens.

[Stehlo]

In any number of fields there are brands that make products in various price ranges.

 

Some brands do turn out both very affordable and very expensive products. Quality is certainly a factor as well, but again there are companies turning out very reliable and attractive products at modest prices.

 

I think that to be labelled a "luxury brand" like perhaps Dupont might be, it's not a factor of the price of your most expensive product, rather the price of your least expensive product.

[LBpens]

I suppose some people think a "better" pen means one they can afford, but others can't.

[bbshriver]

I am surprised Montblanc wasn't mentionned.

I actually wasn't sure what to do with MontBlanc.. Would a 70's vintage MontBlanc be considered superior to a similar vintage 75?

 

The two Parkers you mention were consider top tier pens in their day and priced accordingly. While neither Cartier nor ST Dupont were offering fountain pens in the 40s they were by the end of the "75" era and at only a small premium over what a high end "75" would cost.

 

The difference was not just fancier (you can't get any fancier than many low end pens and fancy was always seen as an alternative marketing strategy to quality) but rather in attention to detail, quality of materials used and additional 'craftsman' labor. If you look at an ST Dupont or Cartier fountain pen from today or from the 70s you will find that the parts that do not normally show are as finished as those that are seen. Just open or close an ST Dupont and experience how the cap tends to self-center as it slides on until it docks with a satisfying 'click'.

 

Sure, there are far more hamburgers sold and people who are satisfied with hamburger than those desiring Prime aged steak and if someone is happy with hamburger and mystery meat then it's pointless to pay for Prime aged steak.

I think you are pretty close to understanding my question. I'm looking at 70's vintage Cartier/ST Dupont (also, Dunhill?) as those are the era that seem to be able to be found for ~$100 or less (cheaper than what many 75's seem to be). Would I find one of those brands to be "superior" to my 75 in terms of quality, fit&finish, materials, and of course writing quality?

[jar]

I actually wasn't sure what to do with MontBlanc.. Would a 70's vintage MontBlanc be considered superior to a similar vintage 75?

 

I think you are pretty close to understanding my question. I'm looking at 70's vintage Cartier/ST Dupont (also, Dunhill?) as those are the era that seem to be able to be found for ~$100 or less (cheaper than what many 75's seem to be). Would I find one of those brands to be "superior" to my 75 in terms of quality, fit&finish, materials, and of course writing quality?

 

There is no right answer to your question. Yes, fit and finish and materials would likely be equal or better than on a "75". But I have no idea what "writing quality" means to you. For me it would include how the pen feels in hand, in pocket, when I am fiddling with it, what sounds it makes, how secure it feels in pocket, how smoothly it slides over different fabrics when putting it in or out of my pocket, how forgiving it is with different inks, how long it will sit uncapped and without being used and still start immediately, the 'provenance' and 'mythos' associated with the marque ...

[dspeers58]

In part I think that it depends on what you are interested in doing, collecting or using. Roger Cromwell gave a good presentation at the Ohio Pen Show on buying and selling pens. It all depends on what you are trying to do. If you are a collector, you could become a hoarder, unless you figure out what it is that you want to collect. If you are a user, then there is nothing wrong with trying different pens and selling off those that do not suit you. However, confusion can set in.

 

I really love Japanese pens. As writers I find few other pens have been so consistent. I also find the varieties of Urushi/Makie artwork, very attractive. However, my budget does not support the purchase of any but the simplest models of those pens. Will they be better as writers? No, I do not think so. The nibs on more expensive pens, whether steel or gold, are quite good in general, with some companies seeming to have more QC problems. Platinum writers (e.g. the 3776 variety), effectively carry the same nib as the Nakaya pens which cost $400+ more than the Platinum. The same could be said for Pilot et al. Visconti, both in Steel, Gold and Palladium is said to have great nibs. The point is, once you get away from the body of the pen and the art of it, the nib and feed is the thing. But if you are collecting art, there is no comparison between a lower-end Nakaya and the Platinum 3776. The Platinum will look cheap, feel plastic, etc. The Urushi will look beautiful, feel great etc. The pleasure of working with a work of art cannot be denied. However, to say that my Platinum 3776 is unpleasant to write with is just nonsense. I enjoy it tremendously. Perhaps one way to explain it is when you jump from a Toyota Corolla to a Lexus. The fit and feel are better, but at the end of the day, they both get you to your destination.

[BrandonA]

I actually wasn't sure what to do with MontBlanc.. Would a 70's vintage MontBlanc be considered superior to a similar vintage 75?

 

 

I think you question is what makes this thread subjective. There are lots of pens I hate that others cherish, they would therefore think the quality is high but I wouldn't.

 

Cheaper pens have lower quality materials, for example steel or other non-gold nibs. Quality pens are likely to have made made parts and have a higher level of quality control. After sales is also important.

 

You'll get snobs who shout down the cheaper pens and you'll get anti-snobs who shout down expensive pens even though they have no experience of using them.

[bbshriver]

Lets see if I can nail down the topic.

Assume what I'm calling "standard" are the top tier of a given brand. i.e. Parker 75, Parker 51, and equivalent pens from say Waterman, Shaeffer. I'm not sure where MontBlanc fits on that spectrum, but I probably see more MontBlanc than any other brand of non-disposable pen, so I'd put it in that standard category I think.

 

The problem is I don't have the availability of stores to go look at various brands, only can get what I see online, and the only thing I can tell from that is relative pricing which doesn't say much.

 

I can compare analogies with cars and watches, but it's still hard to draw a line (learned that from the watch forum lol)

I have a Timex, Citizen, Hamilton and Omega watch, and I can clearly tell the differences for each at their respective price point. Of course the Citizen is the best at keeping time, but there are other differences that have me preferring the mechanical movement Hamilton and Omega.

 

With cars, a Honda Civic is perfectly adept at transporting from A to B, but I can definitely tell where the extra $ goes when driving a Bentley.

[zaddick]

I think the challenge here is the fact you are saying "better pen" in your question. Luxury items tend to exceed the minimum functionality reuqured of an item, through materials, craftsmanship, or exclusiveness. Does that make them better? Depends what you, as an individual, value.

 

One of the things I really liked about economics as a social science is that it provides a framework where you can evaluate and rank decisions - the concept of utility. Once I know the parameters of my own utility function (say cost, material, customer service, bling, past experience with the brand, etc.) I can weight them appropriately and then optimize my utility given constraints (budget being an obvious one). So I can use the approach to order the world of pens. You can do the same. The problem is that your utility score cannot directly compare to mine. Two rational people can look at the exact same pen and come up with completely different rankings of where it exists in their "peniverse." That's why it is a socal science instead of a hard science.

[MBFan]

I suppose some people think a "better" pen means one they can afford, but others can't.

Bam. In a nutshell. So true.

[IcySwan1]

I have some high end German and Italian pens. They generally write better than my Safaris and TWSBI. But not by a factor of 10 that is reflected in the price. I will continue to go to M800s regularly, but I find I am using the Safaris and the 580 more and more.

 

Mike

[KBeezie]

I suppose some people think a "better" pen means one they can afford, but others can't.

 

That 80 thousand dollar Maki-e pen is clearly better... cuz it's like... 80 thousand dollars.

[Runnin_Ute]

I would NOT put Mont Blanc in your "standard" category. Your experience with seeing many of them may be skewed by the people who you know who own them. How? Did they buy it for its "prestige" factor or because it writes better? Also income level comes into play here. A guy who makes six figures is more likely to buy a MB than a Lamy for example than a guy who makes mid 5 figures.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Runnin_Ute

[bbshriver]

I would NOT put Mont Blanc in your "standard" category. Your experience with seeing many of them may be skewed by the people who you know who own them. How? Did they buy it for its "prestige" factor or because it writes better? Also income level comes into play here. A guy who makes six figures is more likely to buy a MB than a Lamy for example than a guy who makes mid 5 figures.

like I said, I don't know much about MontBlanc other than they seem to be the "go to" brand for pens, like Rolex (incidentally, over on the watch forum, they don't consider Rolex to be "high end") for watches and Mercedes/BMW for cars. Granted I can still count the # of MB I've seen on one hand. I know exactly 2 people other than me that have Parkers (my dad, and someone at work has a Jotter).

 

One of our old pastors had a MB fountain... every other MB I've seen in the wild has been ballpoint. Also, every MB I've ever seen has been plain black, vs my 75 which is silver. Like many rolex and Mercedes owners I know, the few MontBlanc owners I've met don't seem to be "pen" people, just heard that MB was the "best". Now, like Rolex and Mercedes, I'm sure MontBlanc has done something to deserve that reputation.

 

I just find MB to be a bit of an anomoly, because they're really the only brand pen I see in the wild other than Bic/Papermate/etc.

[bbshriver]

It's kind of a shame with this topic, seems to have wandered quite a bit from where I was thinking, but I understand it's hard for others to understand my question too.

 

 

 

Jar has come closest to providing an answer. Maybe sometime I'll just have to find an ST Dupont or Cartier to try out. What other brands would be considered comparable to those two?