Noodler's Black...pigments?

[KBeezie]

I think it's because whatever Noodler does to make their bulletproof and waterproof inks is done during the 'cooking' or whatever process, rather than simply diluting. Don't know the details of it, but if 'any ink' is 99% water we'd have some pretty thin inks that would take a while to dry.

 

Far as pigmented, other than from my printer background I couldn't tell you much, they're usually waterproof once bonded to the surface of the paper (mainly what I learned with epson printers and their line of pigmented offerings).

 

The only FP Ink I've played with that was pigmented was Platinum Carbon Black, and while it was a nice black, it dried way too easily in my pens, I'd have to force some ink thru the converter sometimes if I didn't write with it overnight or for a couple of days.

 

Where as most of the permanent noodler's inks I've tried I've rarely had a flow problem, and Noodler's Black Eel (all the same properties of Noodler's black plus lubrication) is my primary black in most of my pens especially if the nibs are extra fine. I absolutely love it in my Sheaffer Touchdown Admiral with a Feathertouch Accounting nib (though the lubrication + platinum does help flow, I'd imagine even normal Noodler's black would still flow as well), can barely touch the paper and it just goes [again, probably due to the platninum coating of the feathertouch nib].

 

Though I also use it in my Sheaffer Craftsman with a #33 nib which is almost as fine a line as my Touchdown, but it's just a straight open 14K gold nib, and I haven't had clumping or flow problem with that either. Just that Platinum Carbon Black which is pigmented had I had a problem, and R&K Scabiosa (iron gall) which had some startup dryness but not as bad as the platinum carbon black.

[KBeezie]

PS: I still have some of my Carbon Black if you want me to get a shot of it in distilled water.

[fledermaus89]

Yes, please let us know, although I highly doubt we will be able to see any macroscopic particles even if it's a pigmented ink.

 

By the way, are iron gall inks classified as pigmented? I actually have a bottle of Scabiosa (I heard somewhere that this is not the 'traditional' iron gall formula though), so I can try it out.

[KBeezie]

K, going to do so now then, PS: I do use a 1:1 90mm f/2.8 lifesize macro lens.

[KBeezie]

Here you go (720p max):

 

[KBeezie]

Yes, please let us know, although I highly doubt we will be able to see any macroscopic particles even if it's a pigmented ink.

 

By the way, are iron gall inks classified as pigmented? I actually have a bottle of Scabiosa (I heard somewhere that this is not the 'traditional' iron gall formula though), so I can try it out.

 

No Iron Gall is not pigmented, it's just iron gall (water-proof before they really perfected water-proofing in dye based inks), course 'old' iron gall was quite a bit more acidic than they are now days. But I think even modern IG can corrode steel nibs or eat at the feed if left there for too long (too long being something like months).

[fledermaus89]

Wow, thanks for the high quality video! It seems like Platinum behaves much closer to regular dye inks than Noodler's black. I believe carbon black is waterproof; so maybe Noodler's waterproof inks a different method to achieve the waterproofness (or possibly there are added ingredients to make it 'bulletproof' which causes the clumps). Were you able to observe any fine particulates when diluted and written on paper, or residues from the glass?

[KBeezie]

Wow, thanks for the high quality video! It seems like Platinum behaves much closer to regular dye inks than Noodler's black. I believe carbon black is waterproof; so maybe Noodler's waterproof inks a different method to achieve the waterproofness (or possibly there are added ingredients to make it 'bulletproof' which causes the clumps). Were you able to observe any fine particulates when diluted and written on paper, or residues from the glass?

 

Most likely yes, Platinum Carbon Black was one of March's Ink Drop selections, with March's theme being "Lasting Impressions", so all the inks were permanents, two R&K Iron Galls (Scabiosa and Salix), Platinum Carbon Black, Noodler's Upper Ganges Blue, and Noodler's Bad Green Gator.

 

While Platinum Carbon Black is water-proof, I don't know if it's Bulletproof, Eternal and Forgery Resistant like Noodler's Black.

 

There are some Noodler's inks that are water proof, but not Bulletproof, Eternal, or Forgery Resistant such as Borealis Black.

 

Bulletproof = UV Resistant, Bleach Resistant, etc.

Eternal = Archival, Fade Resistant.

Forgery-Resistant = Impervious to lasers, alcohol, solvents, etc.

 

So any one of those 3 above could be causing it to react to water the way you're seeing.

[KBeezie]

PS: Nothing stuck to the glass or particulates, and sorry I didn't think to try writing with it, but if it's any help here's what it looked like on the tissue I wiped the eye dropper off on.

 

From what I can see it's just simple a pretty even bleed from higher concentration (ie: where I squeezed out some ink from eye dropper) and the diluted part around it, no real clumps, and no real visible particles just darker and lighter. You can probably see the individual fibers on this (resized down from 12MP)

[KBeezie]

I could give it another go and just dip one of my pens if you'd like I wouldn't even have to use as much water this time around either since I'm just trying to dilute some.

[fledermaus89]

It looks like Platinum doesn't show any macroscopic particles. My conclusion is that while Noodler's black is probably not a pigmented ink (as in the colorants being more than one molecule in size) the dye molecules tend to cluster into particles and then to clumps with the help of non-colorants that were added to give it a bulletproof property. If anyone thinks otherwise, please add your comments.

 

And thank you very much KBeezie for doing the tests and uploading the video. Now I can go to bed with most questions cleared (almost 4am here!)

Edited March 30, 2014 by fledermaus89

[KBeezie]

K, that was rather unusual, seems when you dilute carbon black, the actual "black" part of the ink acts like teflon to paper. I I had to literally suck up the diluted ink with a converter removed from the pen, then pop it into the section just to get some flow, even then I noticed only water for the most part was being drawn, if I take a napkin to the feed, the deep black would leak to the napkin... but would not make contact with the nib or any other metal, like it repelling the nib (Didn't matter if it was a 14K gold nib or a steel nib).

 

I also used very little dilution too, like maybe 25/75 water to ink.

 

 

[mhosea]

Wow, thanks for the high quality video! It seems like Platinum behaves much closer to regular dye inks than Noodler's black. I believe carbon black is waterproof; so maybe Noodler's waterproof inks a different method to achieve the waterproofness (or possibly there are added ingredients to make it 'bulletproof' which causes the clumps). Were you able to observe any fine particulates when diluted and written on paper, or residues from the glass?

You might just research cellulose-reactive dyes. AFAIK, Noodler's bulletproof inks are the result of making FP ink out of ink technology that was invented for making colorfast fabrics. The dyes are obviously somewhat different to work with, prompting the use of different concentrations and surfactant levels to get proper flow as FP inks. The physical behaviors we are observing may be intrinsic to all such dyes or to some subset of them which happen to be amenable to FP use for other reasons.

[mhosea]

I think it's because whatever Noodler does to make their bulletproof and waterproof inks is done during the 'cooking' or whatever process, rather than simply diluting. Don't know the details of it, but if 'any ink' is 99% water we'd have some pretty thin inks that would take a while to dry.

Closest approximation to FP ink using water would require a preservative (e.g. phenol) and a surfactant (e.g. Kokak Photo-Flo). Dry time is probably a complex thing. Normally diluting reduces drying time of a FP ink, including Noodler's bulletproof inks, but perhaps only to a point. If you want to use dramatic dilutions such as discussed here, you probably will need to add a surfactant just to make the dilution flow properly. OTOH, fast-dry inks are made to soak into the paper to achieve faster-than-evaporation drying time.

[sketchstack]

I arrived at this old thread because I've long wondered about Noodler's Black and why it stands alone in various ways compared to just about every other black ink I've used. 

 

The reason I've thought about this recently is because I had an opportunity to try the new Platinum Chou Kuro "Ultimate Black" pigmented ink --and that is the first black ink I've ever used that reminds me of Noodler's Black in several key ways:

• Even saturation, nearly zero shading
• Matte finish, no shine once dried
• Appears to sit atop the paper vs soaking in
• Each are considered permanent
• Most noteworthy: Besides Noodler's Black, this new Platinum is the first ink I've ever used to also exhibit what I used to call the "Noodler's sludge". 

While I don't know what Noodler's is made of specifically, and likely never will, I do think it's interesting that in terms of easily observable characteristics it shares more with this new Platinum pigment ink than any other black ink I've ever used, dye or otherwise.