Handwriting Italic....progress?

[qwpoi]

Hello everyone!

 

 

Here is a sample of my attempts at arm writing--done extreeeeemly slowly. I've been at it for maybe 2 weeks. At this point, I don't know how I'll ever be able to write normally with my arm.

 

I'd welcome any tips or things that I'm obviously neglecting to work on...

(these are just random words from a podcast I was listening to...)

[EDIT -- I know my slants are all off. I have printed out some sheets with vertical lines so I can work on that. I just wonder how I'll ever get any faster!!)

 

Edited March 10, 2014 by qwpoi

[Tonkus]

I really liked the Lloyd Reynolds videos. He talks a little about building speed.

 

Lloyd Reynolds' Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting

[Nanny]

Your question title indicates you are going for italic handwriting. Neither I nor any of my colleagues writes italic with shoulder/arm movement. It is all in the fingers and some movement in the hand. The ulnar side of the hand rides along on the writing surface. (The ulnar side of the hand is opposite from the thumb side.) I wonder what model you are using. Usually 'r' looks similar to the one in Frederici. Your z is a copperplate derivative.

 

Note the pen strokes in "expectation;" it appears that you have joined from 'e' into 'x' both from the baseline and from a stroke in the center of the 'e' out into the 'x' again. That is just one extreme example of of letter formations that need clarification. You might go to briem.net He has some excellent handwriting help.

[Mickey]

As should be obvious to many, I am not one of Nanny's colleagues, since I write italic with arm and shoulder movement, almost zero finger movement (except for serifs and such) and very little wrist flexure. That said, Italic is not usually taught as a 'whole arm' discipline, like Spencerian. You should concentrate on the letter forms, not so much on how you put the marks on the page.

 

One of the beauties of italic learned with a broad edged pen is the pen itself makes 'finger writing' (in the worst sense) all but impossible. I believe getting an edged pen is the next logical step for you. Start with a fairly wide pen, 1.1 or 1.5mm*. This will help you develop pen discipline and assist you in critiquing your own work. For now, ignore the question of arm vs fingers and concentrate instead on learning the architecture of the hand and, should you wish to write a joined italic, learning which joins work well and which don't.

 

As the Lloyd Reynolds videos are readily available, I recommend highly that you take a look at them.

 

* Others may disagree, but I believe crisp edged pens are better learning tools than cursive pens.

[qwpoi]

Your question title indicates you are going for italic handwriting. Neither I nor any of my colleagues writes italic with shoulder/arm movement. It is all in the fingers and some movement in the hand. The ulnar side of the hand rides along on the writing surface. (The ulnar side of the hand is opposite from the thumb side.) I wonder what model you are using. Usually 'r' looks similar to the one in Frederici. Your z is a copperplate derivative.

 

Note the pen strokes in "expectation;" it appears that you have joined from 'e' into 'x' both from the baseline and from a stroke in the center of the 'e' out into the 'x' again. That is just one extreme example of of letter formations that need clarification. You might go to briem.net He has some excellent handwriting help.

Thanks! I'm actually using briem. I'm not trying to stick to strict italics so I did switch up the shapes for a few letters to see how it felt.

 

Re the arm, oh! I didn't know that! I kept reading on this forum that finger writing was bad and arm writing was good. I am just looking for a style that that looked nice that would be appropriate for everyday use.

[HDoug]

To each his own, but as will come as no surprise to regular visitors of this forum, I think using arm or shoulder movement to write italic is bizarre and nonsensical. Some may write that way and more power to them. If one wishes — or as a stunt — one can also write by keeping the entire trunk of the body rigid and writing with waist movement. Or standing using knee movements. But fine handiwork is done by the hand and that means a collaboration of all the components of the hand which includes fingers, wrist etc. That's why it's called "handwriting."

 

The use of arm and shoulder might be part of the pedagogy for later roundhands such as copperplate and Palmer. So if you are interested in those forms of handwriting, what I'm saying doesn't necessarily apply.

 

Here is a set of photos of paintings from the quill era. Most show writing hands in contact with the surface and writing being done by the hand.

 

If you wish to write using some other method, please go ahead.

 

Doug

[Tonkus]

My guess is that the arm vs hand writing discussion will go on forever. The truth is probably that it depends on what "hand" you are using. The more flowing fast writing style like Palmer or D'nealian is probably better suited for arm writing whereas ornate delicate copperplate is more suited to hand writing aka (drawing). My preference for Italic is hand writing but my script leaves much room for improvement.

Unless you plan to make a living with your pen the important thing is to have fun with it.

[Randal6393]

...

 

* Others may disagree, but I believe crisp edged pens are better learning tools than cursive pens.

+1 on Mickey's point here. The control of the edge and a "lightness of hand" will help one to develop the characteristic letter forms of italic.

 

As far as fingers vs arm, well, writing is a holistic endeavor. Requires that you move the pen, not work with just fingers or just the arm. Just grab an edged pen -- the broader the better -- and start in learning the letter shapes and forms. While you are on Briem's site, take a look at La Operina by Arrighi. That is the classic manual for italic handwriting and still one of the best.

 

Best of luck to you,

[Mickey]

To each his own, but as will come as no surprise to regular visitors of this forum, I think using arm or shoulder movement to write italic is bizarre and nonsensical. Some may write that way and more power to them. If one wishes — or as a stunt — one can also write by keeping the entire trunk of the body rigid and writing with waist movement. Or standing using knee movements. But fine handiwork is done by the hand and that means a collaboration of all the components of the hand which includes fingers, wrist etc. That's why it's called "handwriting."

 

The use of arm and shoulder might be part of the pedagogy for later roundhands such as copperplate and Palmer. So if you are interested in those forms of handwriting, what I'm saying doesn't necessarily apply.

 

Here is a set of photos of paintings from the quill era. Most show writing hands in contact with the surface and writing being done by the hand.

 

If you wish to write using some other method, please go ahead.

 

Doug

 

You are, of course, allowed to believe what you like is bizarre or nonsensical, so I suppose I'm allowed to believe your opinion no less bizarre.

 

If I read you correctly, you imply that my little experiment https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/256936-a-modest-italic-experiment/ was a stunt. That would be uncharitable and intellectually dishonest. I assure you it was not a stunt. It was a sincere attempt to demonstrate that a technique which does not adhere to your sense of orthodoxy is not only possible but practical. I wrote as I normally do while removing any possibility of the fingers or wrist contributing. (This was why I made no attempt to practice or adjust to the test grip.)

 

As for the photos of paintings you offered, they show whatever you wish to say they show. In short they show nothing definite. They suggest strongly that the tripod grip was a standard approach - on this we might agree - but as far as showing much of anything else, the images are highly equivocal for two simple reasons. First, they are fixed images. (Are we to believe that staring to the side or off into space is a correct technique?). They do not show the pen or hand in motion and only one, (2nd painting, 2nd row) shows a posture where 'whole arm' writing would be difficult. Since only the most extreme adherents of 'whole arm' disallow contact between arm and table, the paintings show us nothing interesting with regard to this discussion. Second, they are paintings, which means they are interpretations, not data or facts.

 

Now your 'handwriting' argument is truly bizarre in my opinion, as if only Germanic languages provide a word to describe the activity. I find it ironic the Italian word for the activity (scrittura) makes no such direct reference to the hand. As the writing style has it's origins in Italy, that would seem to be definitive. (Imagine a smiley).

 

Finally, to suggest that only the fingers and wrist in isolation are capable of fine work is to ignore this video (not a photo of a painting) of Del Tysdal.

 

 

The fingers of his writing hand are inert. The writing may not be italic, but if it is not fine, I'll eat my desk (en croute).

[qwpoi]

thanks everyone!

[qwpoi]

also, I only have a broad size nib...that should be close enough, right? (i just spent way to much money on fp stuff and accessories this year, and it's only march!)

[qwpoi]

and one more...the italic lowercase "e" is driving me crazy. I can't get it to look right. does anyone have any specific tips?

 

 

[mvarela]

and one more...the italic lowercase "e" is driving me crazy. I can't get it to look right. does anyone have any specific tips?

 

 

Yes, your ductus is wrong. The italic 'e' is best done as two strokes. See here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/2035-chancery-italic-script-instructions/?p=20636

[mvarela]

To each his own, but as will come as no surprise to regular visitors of this forum, I think using arm or shoulder movement to write italic is bizarre and nonsensical. Some may write that way and more power to them. If one wishes — or as a stunt — one can also write by keeping the entire trunk of the body rigid and writing with waist movement. Or standing using knee movements. But fine handiwork is done by the hand and that means a collaboration of all the components of the hand which includes fingers, wrist etc. That's why it's called "handwriting."

 

The use of arm and shoulder might be part of the pedagogy for later roundhands such as copperplate and Palmer. So if you are interested in those forms of handwriting, what I'm saying doesn't necessarily apply.

 

Here is a set of photos of paintings from the quill era. Most show writing hands in contact with the surface and writing being done by the hand.

 

If you wish to write using some other method, please go ahead.

 

Doug

 

I don't think that resting the side of the hand on the paper is incompatible with muscular movement (though it clearly is with full-arm or shoulder movement). When writing italic I rest my hand, but the writing is done with the forearm, with basically no finger or wrist movement. I don't find full-arm comfortable for anything other than Ornamental Script caps, but neither do I find writing with the fingers comfy or conducive to a good hand (then again, this is just me).

[Mickey]

First, a broad nib, is not the same thing as a broad pen, another name for an edged or edge pen, sometimes called an italic pen. Sorry, but the terminology is used rather loosely. What I suggested was a fairly wide edged pen, e.g., a 1.5mm italic nib.

 

As for what is wrong with your e, they appear to tilt backwards. The first step in fixing that would be to not bring the bottom arm of the letter so far right. Bring is just barely forward of the center line. Second, the sense of the bottom part of the loop should be more horizontal. (Look at the type set 'e'.) It isn't, of course, but in your letters, that line is too circular and seems, if anything, to tilt (high on the right), which increases the sense that the entire letter leans backwards.

 

Nanny, HDoug? This is really your area of expertise. I only write Italic from time to time; I haven't made a serious look at its architecture in a few decades.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Mickey

[Mickey]

 

I don't think that resting the side of the hand on the paper is incompatible with muscular movement (though it clearly is with full-arm or shoulder movement). When writing italic I rest my hand, but the writing is done with the forearm, with basically no finger or wrist movement. I don't find full-arm comfortable for anything other than Ornamental Script caps, but neither do I find writing with the fingers comfy or conducive to a good hand (then again, this is just me).

 

Not just you. You've pretty well summed up my approach and understanding; no argument with any of it.

 

(BTW, I love the word 'ductus' - wonderfully descriptive.)

Edited March 11, 2014 by Mickey

[qwpoi]

so just to clarify...i need to buy a new pen, not get a new nib for my existing fountain pens?

 

actually mvarela, i did see that yesterday...and all those e's you see were made with the two stroke method. somehow i can't seem to make it look not ridiculous, even though I've traced over a printed copy several times. i suppose i just need to keep practicing.

[Mickey]

so just to clarify...i need to buy a new pen, not get a new nib for my existing fountain pens?

 

actually mvarela, i did see that yesterday...and all those e's you see were made with the two stroke method. somehow i can't seem to make it look not ridiculous, even though I've traced over a printed copy several times. i suppose i just need to keep practicing.

 

Either a new pen or an appropriate nib for an existing pen, i.e., a nib (probably) labeled Italic and or designated by the manufacturer as some specific width, e.g., 1.1mm, 1.5mm, 2.1mm.

[mvarela]

so just to clarify...i need to buy a new pen, not get a new nib for my existing fountain pens?

 

actually mvarela, i did see that yesterday...and all those e's you see were made with the two stroke method. somehow i can't seem to make it look not ridiculous, even though I've traced over a printed copy several times. i suppose i just need to keep practicing.

 

Don't despair... keep practicing it, and at some point it will click. I think that getting a proper italic nib, as Mickey suggested would help significantly. I can do a decent chancery hand with an italic nib, but my monoline italic is horrible.

 

Try to make the left side of your 'e' more vertical, aligned with the slant, and only curve slightly at the bottom. That might make it easier. Check the 'e's here: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=royal_ms_12_c_viii_f001v

 

Most importantly, have fun!

[qwpoi]

thanks all!