Functional Difference Between Noodler's Bulletproof And Iron Gall Inks?

[Sinistral1]

At this point, is it even possible to know the original chemical makeup of the ink used on the Constitution, since it is my impression that it would have been made by hand and each ink maker would have used slightly (or significantly) different formulas and ingredients in their ink?

[pharmacist]

Some iron gall inks used in old mediëval manuscripts hold up quite remarkedly well, others have caused holes in the paper or have faded away, so the right proportions of the ingredients are very important. On the contrary the chinese writings on mulberry paper or silk written with chinese ink (carbon black) are still vividly deep black, even if the paper have turned yellow or fallen apart in pieces, even after 1500 years. So the most superior ink is based on carbon black, which is truely archival.

[JakobS]

Jakob, check out the thread about the Constitution, turns out the worst damage was done after 1951. Who knew? Bottom line, I have had ink in closed journals that were locked away in dark cool places fade away. I can't tell you how frustrating that is. Also, see my explanation above about my own artwork. You are assuming that my paper will be locked away in cool dark places - that isn't likely when you live in the desert.

Within the original question, though many conventional inks have shown ample fade resistance overtime, we are talking specifically of the different qualities of IG and bulletproof inks. The example of your art was addressed in my last sentence, Akkerman Orange is a conventional ink, and of a color family that is known to have poor fade resistance even when produced as a bulletproof variety, which Nathan admits freely ( http://noodlersink.com/noodlers-durable-ink-classification/ ). Its not a fair comparison when talking about IG inks and their abilities under the same situation (displayed in a frame with UV protective glass in ambient light). Which was what I was/am trying to point out. Its a general rule that black inks, both bulletproof and conventional are more fade resistant than than other colored inks, followed by blue, brown, green, purple, red, orange, and yellow. If something is meant to last with fountain pen ink and their given dyes, its best to do so with a black or blue ink, no matter the light exposure, as other environmental elements play their parts as well i.e. humidity, gases, air pollutants etc.

 

I never said a cool storage area, and actually dry, arid, and low humidity environments can be perfect environments to store important documents for archival and longevity purposes. Historically, you can look most readily at the Dead Sea Scrolls before being mishandled by the archaeologists and curators that initially discovered and stored them, which were found in great condition in clay pots in desert caves of the West Bank. And, in modern times, this process can be seen with the policy of the US National Archives (http://www.archives.gov/preservation/technical/tip13.pdf (Page 5) ). Though being from Colorado, I do understand that 30-45% relative humidity is considered humid for the west! But compared to storing writing in a home in the Northeast or Deep South for example, would be less likely to develop mold, or chemical reactions that would be present with high heat and high humidity.

 

I am not saying that all writing is always stored away from light in drawers, but much of it is if for no other reason than for organizational purposes, be it with drawers, shelves, or simply in closing a notebook and journal. Left in ambient light, I contend that traditional blue black IG ink will last just as long as bulletproof ink in these situations, and even better than many of the non black or grey bulletproof inks that are presently available.

 

I am not readily finding much on the post 1951 acts that may have caused most of the damage to the constitution. If you can provide a link, or reference that would be great!

 

I did find a piece from the US National Archives about the inner glass deteriorating in 1987 because of the inability of the helium to keep the relative humidity at 30% in the enclosure. But, compared to a century plus of varied and unregulated humidity in addition to the before mentioned 35 years of direct sunlight, I cannot see how this would be worse than what it was exposed to previously, especially as they mention that even with the glass deterioration and higher humidity the ink was only slightly damaged from the humidity when they finally removed it from its enclosure. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/charters_preservation_01.html

Edited March 5, 2014 by JakobS

[amberleadavis]

At this point, is it even possible to know the original chemical makeup of the ink used on the Constitution, since it is my impression that it would have been made by hand and each ink maker would have used slightly (or significantly) different formulas and ingredients in their ink?

 

 

According to PBS and the archivists, yes. Here is the FPN link.

[amberleadavis]

 

Within the original question, though many conventional inks have shown ample fade resistance overtime, we are talking specifically of the different qualities of IG and bulletproof inks. The example of your art was addressed in my last sentence, Akkerman Orange is a conventional ink, and of a color family that is known to have poor fade resistance even when produced as a bulletproof variety, which Nathan admits freely ( http://noodlersink.com/noodlers-durable-ink-classification/ ). Its not a fair comparison when talking about IG inks and their abilities under the same situation (displayed in a frame with UV protective glass). Which was what I was/am trying to point out. Its a general rule that black inks, both bulletproof and conventional are more fade resistant than than other colored inks, followed by blue, brown, green, purple, red, orange, and yellow. If something is meant to last with fountain pen ink and their given dyes, its best to do so with a black or blue ink, no matter the light exposure, as other environmental elements play their parts as well i.e. humidity, gases, air pollutants etc.

 

I never said a cool storage area, and actually dry, arid, and low humidity environments can be perfect environments to store important documents for archival and longevity purposes. Historically, you can look most readily at the Dead Sea Scrolls before being mishandled by the archaeologists and curators that initially discovered and stored them, which were found in great condition in clay pots in desert caves of the West Bank. And, in modern times, this process can be seen with the policy of the US National Archives (http://www.archives.gov/preservation/technical/tip13.pdf (Page 5) ). Though being from Colorado, I do understand that 30-45% relative humidity is considered humid for the west! But compared to storing writing in a home in the Northeast or Deep South for example, would be less likely to develop mold, or chemical reactions that would be present with high heat and high humidity.

 

I am not saying that all writing is always stored away from light in drawers, but much of it is if for no other reason than for organizational purposes, be it with drawers, shelves, or simply in closing a notebook and journal. Left in ambient light, I contend that traditional blue black IG ink will last just as long as bulletproof ink in these situations, and even better than many of the non black or grey bulletproof inks that are presently available.

 

I am not readily finding much on the post 1951 acts that may have caused most of the damage to the constitution. If you can provide a link, or reference that would be great!

 

I did find a piece from the US National Archives about the inner glass deteriorating in 1987 because of the inability of the helium to keep the relative humidity at 30% in the enclosure. But, compared to a century plus of varied and unregulated humidity in addition to the before mentioned 35 years of direct sunlight, I cannot see how this would be worse than what it was exposed to previously, especially as they mention that even with the glass deterioration and higher humidity the ink was only slightly damaged from the humidity when they finally removed it from its enclosure. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/charters_preservation_01.html

 

 

I'm not trying to argue with you. The OP asked about the functional difference. I provided an answer, IG does not necessarily mean archival and bullet proof does not necessarily mean fade proof.

 

As for the constitution, the part I found the most interesting is that the worst of the damage was probably done when the first "copies" were made. Some of the most interesting stuff including the original case is discussed here. I'm looking for the link, but I need to head home for the night. The PBS special was really cool.

 

 

As for my artwork fading, here's what NOVA had to say:

 

One thing is to remove all those wavelengths we can't see anyway from the light striking a valued object. A 50-watt incandescent light bulb spews out 100 billion billion photons a second, and 95 percent of those are either infrared or ultraviolet radiation, both of which are invisible to us. All those unnecessary photons slamming into our watercolor or framed photo at 186,000 miles per second are not helping us to see; they're only helping to harm the item.

[JakobS]

I'm not trying to argue with you. The OP asked about the functional difference. I provided an answer, IG does not necessarily mean archival and bullet proof does not necessarily mean fade proof.[]

 

Nor am I trying to argue with you, but I felt the statement that the ink gall ink used to write the US Consitution faded without being exposed to direct sunlight needed to be clarified as such intense fading only occurs in the presence of a powerful bleaching agent, in this case peroxides created from its interaction with sunlight. Most conservators who have seen and worked on the US Constitution and Declaration Of Independence are surprised at just how deteriorated the two documents are, as even with the known deterioration that can occur in iron gall (acidifaction of paper and ink causing holes over the writing, and fading under intense or prolonged UV) these are especially deteriorated by fading. Though the vellum and ink show little effect of acidification, which mean both were of great quality. The first versions of the Magna Carta written 500 years previous appear in better condition. Properly archived, or even simply stored away for direct sunlight both iron gall inks and bulletproof ink are archival inks, some, especially those outside of black, or grey shades can fade more than others, but if UV exposure is minimized this maybe due to other factors such as relative humidity, or ground level ozone, though atleast according to the one source I found so far, iron gall ink appears resistant to ozone. But more on this in a new thread sometime this week!

 

[]As for the constitution, the part I found the most interesting is that the worst of the damage was probably done when the first "copies" were made. Some of the most interesting stuff including the original case is discussed here. I'm looking for the link, but I need to head home for the night. The PBS special was really cool.[]

 

Its becoming clearer that we are talking about two different documents, with the links above it appears you were thinking more about what has happened to the US Declaration of Independence, where I was going off your mention of the constitution. Though they both were displayed for 35 years in direct sunlight in the Patent Office, the whole unsupervised copying affair did do wonderful damage indeed! I would wonder how many archival inks would stand up to such treatment! Luckily, it seems the constitution being multiple pages, and filled more with legalese, was not presented with such torture![]

 

As for my artwork fading, here's what NOVA had to say: One thing is to remove all those wavelengths we can't see anyway from the light striking a valued object. A 50-watt incandescent light bulb spews out 100 billion billion photons a second, and 95 percent of those are either infrared or ultraviolet radiation, both of which are invisible to us. All those unnecessary photons slamming into our watercolor or framed photo at 186,000 miles per second are not helping us to see; they're only helping to harm the item.[]

 

This kinda goes back to the thread Koyote made about ambient light effecting ink. UV from incadescent and CFL light bulbs has definitely been a concern in art preservation, though the UV intensity does decrease with distance from the light, and usually within a dozen centimeters. The best solution I have found it to use LEDs instead, no IR wavelengths, and significantly reduced UV. Most museums now use them, and no matter what light source attempt to keep the lux (lumens per meter^2) hitting the artwork at around 50. Anline dyes are well known to fade, and orange especially so, but given that, another thing to consider in your case is ground level ozone. Ozone is a powerful oxidizer that has become a greater worry as air pollution in large cities has created chronic smog which is like a tender womb for its birth. It can cause art to fade relatively quickly depending on the medium. In Denver we have the infamous brown cloud, I am sure Las Vegas can get that way too. But as I said, more on this in a new thread I hope to post later this week!

 

This is not simply a response to your post Amber, as much of this you ay know, but some general ideas that other members can consider in using and preserving IG inks.

 

Sorry about the qoute not working, for some reason its just not happening with my computer.

[amberleadavis]

I'm not trying to argue with you. The OP asked about the functional difference. I provided an answer, IG does not necessarily mean archival and bullet proof does not necessarily mean fade proof.[]

 

Nor am I trying to argue with you, but I felt the statement that the ink gall ink used to write the US Consitution faded without being exposed to direct sunlight needed to be clarified as such intense fading only occurs in the presence of a powerful bleaching agent, in this case peroxides created from its interaction with sunlight. Most conservators who have seen and worked on the US Constitution and Declaration Of Independence are surprised at just how deteriorated the two documents are, as even with the known deterioration that can occur in iron gall (acidifaction of paper and ink causing holes over the writing, and fading under intense or prolonged UV) these are especially deteriorated by fading. Though the vellum and ink show little effect of acidification, which mean both were of great quality. The first versions of the Magna Carta written 500 years previous appear in better condition. Properly archived, or even simply stored away for direct sunlight both iron gall inks and bulletproof ink are archival inks, some, especially those outside of black, or grey shades can fade more than others, but if UV exposure is minimized this maybe due to other factors such as relative humidity, or ground level ozone, though atleast according to the one source I found so far, iron gall ink appears resistant to ozone. But more on this in a new thread sometime this week!

 

[]As for the constitution, the part I found the most interesting is that the worst of the damage was probably done when the first "copies" were made. Some of the most interesting stuff including the original case is discussed here. I'm looking for the link, but I need to head home for the night. The PBS special was really cool.[]

 

Its becoming clearer that we are talking about two different documents, with the links above it appears you were thinking more about what has happened to the US Declaration of Independence, where I was going off your mention of the constitution. Though they both were displayed for 35 years in direct sunlight in the Patent Office, the whole unsupervised copying affair did do wonderful damage indeed! I would wonder how many archival inks would stand up to such treatment! Luckily, it seems the constitution being multiple pages, and filled more with legalese, was not presented with such torture![]

 

As for my artwork fading, here's what NOVA had to say: One thing is to remove all those wavelengths we can't see anyway from the light striking a valued object. A 50-watt incandescent light bulb spews out 100 billion billion photons a second, and 95 percent of those are either infrared or ultraviolet radiation, both of which are invisible to us. All those unnecessary photons slamming into our watercolor or framed photo at 186,000 miles per second are not helping us to see; they're only helping to harm the item.[]

 

This kinda goes back to the thread Koyote made about ambient light effecting ink. UV from incadescent and CFL light bulbs has definitely been a concern in art preservation, though the UV intensity does decrease with distance from the light, and usually within a dozen centimeters. The best solution I have found it to use LEDs instead, no IR wavelengths, and significantly reduced UV. Most museums now use them, and no matter what light source attempt to keep the lux (lumens per meter^2) hitting the artwork at around 50. Anline dyes are well known to fade, and orange especially so, but given that, another thing to consider in your case is ground level ozone. Ozone is a powerful oxidizer that has become a greater worry as air pollution in large cities has created chronic smog which is like a tender womb for its birth. It can cause art to fade relatively quickly depending on the medium. In Denver we have the infamous brown cloud, I am sure Las Vegas can get that way too. But as I said, more on this in a new thread I hope to post later this week!

 

This is not simply a response to your post Amber, as much of this you ay know, but some general ideas that other members can consider in using and preserving IG inks.

 

Sorry about the qoute not working, for some reason its just not happening with my computer.

 

I hate when quote doesn't work either.

 

I see you were correct I was writing about the DI not the Constitution -- the dang heading was "Charters of Freedom" and I simply didn't remember it clearly.

 

Of course, I sort of see humor in the fact that we think of the DI as a single document that is on display, but really, it can't be ... it was a letter ... so the "original" (in theory) is NOT in the US. Of course, the "original" is a set of copies that were "written" by a master scribe and one of those is in England and one of those is on display. Makes us think about what is an "original"

 

I look forward to seeing the other post.

[TSherbs]

I write with both Noodler's Bulletproof inks -- Bad Blue Heron, Bad Green Gator, and Black -- and iron-gall inks. Love both families of ink and use them for different reasons. The two inks are as different, though, as cats from dogs. Basically, Noodler's runs to a wet ink that puts down an "undisciplined" line, sort of wants to flood the page. So I restrict the Noodler's to pens I know are dry and "stingy" with ink. On the other hand, iron-gall inks are "disciplined" and restrict themselves to a tight line. In their case, I use a pen that I know to be wet and that puts out the ink.

 

Most of my day-to-day writing is done with a Lamy 2000, 1.0mm italic nib, and Noodler's Bulletproof Black. Can write on about anything that has cellulose, get a full, easily-read thick line that goes well with cursive italic handwriting. Don't have to worry about water -- you could soak the page and still have easily-read handwriting left. A pretty hand that looks good and is legible.

 

When I want to copy out a song or poetry or do something special, I pick up a Pelikan M200 or Levenger TruWriter, both with 1.0mm italic nibs and filled with Chesterfield Archival Vault ink. A fountain pen iron-gall, the line is fainter than the Noodler's line, but with variability -- maximum shading, good thick-thin variablility, very tightly controlled line. Makes a classical letter, looks like something written in the 15th century. Again, the words are locked onto the page and there to stay. The colors of the ink also add to the character of the line -- a true blue-black, goes on faintly blue, deepens to a black with light blue highlights.

 

Would advise getting a few vials of samples ink from Goulet Pens and trying it out. Find out what you like and why. Then go have fun with your writing.

 

Enjoy,

Great explanation. Thanks. I concur.

[amberleadavis]

Has the OP ever checked back in?

[amberleadavis]

Functional similarity -- they all require good pen hygiene.

[WilsonCQB1911]

Has the OP ever checked back in?

 

I'm still here. I read and absorb what you guys post. It sounds like the bulletproof is the way to go. I may try some IG ink at some point though. Frankly, I'm kind of disappointed in the color of Noodler's Black. It's just not very black. I don't know that I really need a "bulletproof" or archival ink anyway, except for maybe signing the one check a month I sign, but I could always use my ballpoint for that.

[Moose22]

Noodler's Black is not very black? That's odd. I use it and it is blacker than a lot. Maybe a dry writing pen or something is to blame.

 

I use Heart of Darkness, too, and it's super blackety black. Other blacks I've tried were grey in comparison.

[haziz]

Get Aurora Black or Pelikan Brilliant Black and be happy!

[dcwaites]

As stated, the chemistry of iron-gall inks results in black Iron III Oxide particles settling out in the matrix of what you are writing on.

The chemistry of bulletproof/invincible inks is that the dyes react with and bond to cellulose (and only cellulose).

If you are not writing on cellulose based paper (i.e. rock paper, made from plastic and limestone) you don't get that reaction or the bonding.

 

Pre 19th century iron gall inks were made by hand, using oak galls of varying quality, copperas and various other substances (beer, wine, vinegar) in many different combinations and ratios.

Modern IG inks are made in the laboratory, using set formulae that are designed to minimise damage to steel nibs and paper. This feature also reduces the ink's longevity.

 

Well-made iron gall ink, when used on animal skins (vellum/parchment) has been known to last over 1000 years. The oldest document I know of in excellent condition is the Codex Sinaiticus, and that is some 1500 years old.

 

However, the indeterminate nature of traditional IG inks means that some inks were not stable, and would turn brown and fade. This is clearly visible in Captain Cook's Log, which, after less than 250 years, is fading to brown. As well, some batches of ink were too acid, and would eat through paper, whilst not affecting parchment.

 

The only ink that is known to last for more than 1000 years on plant-based material (papyrus, paper) is carbon-based ink like India ink or its Chinese and Japanese equivalents. And, as said above, for animal based material (parchment) you need a well made iron-gall ink.

 

I am not trying to be negative here about Bulletproof inks. I would love to send a carboy of Noodler's Black back to the Middle Ages to see how it lasted as on the newly-introduced paper. But, we simply don't know, and accelerated aging tests do not really duplicate what 1000 years of exposure to oxygen and moisture can do.

[WirsPlm]

 

I'm still here. I read and absorb what you guys post. It sounds like the bulletproof is the way to go. I may try some IG ink at some point though. Frankly, I'm kind of disappointed in the color of Noodler's Black. It's just not very black. I don't know that I really need a "bulletproof" or archival ink anyway, except for maybe signing the one check a month I sign, but I could always use my ballpoint for that.

Yeah, the quest for a truly black FP ink is eternal, I wasn't a huge fan of the color of Noodler's black myself but the Anti-Feather or X-Feather ink is quite a nice black and no shading, I like it quite a bit and it also helps pens glide a bit more smoothly (important for very small nibs), the downside is that it takes a bit longer to dry.

[amberleadavis]

Noodler's Black is not very black? That's odd. I use it and it is blacker than a lot. Maybe a dry writing pen or something is to blame.

 

I use Heart of Darkness, too, and it's super blackety black. Other blacks I've tried were grey in comparison.

 

 

Hey, welcome to FPN!

 

I didn't find HOD to be as black as Polar Black.

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Colors/Black/slides/2012_02_25_16_03_54.jpg

[Moose22]

You don't need to keep welcoming me Amber, I've been here a long time. I mean, I don't have 7000 posts... but still.

[amberleadavis]

You don't need to keep welcoming me Amber, I've been here a long time. I mean, I don't have 7000 posts... but still.

 

Aha, it was my new years resolution to "welcome" members with less that 25 posts to the board.... and then I expanded it to 50. Alas, sometimes I forget who I have welcomed (sorry about that).