Functional Difference Between Noodler's Bulletproof And Iron Gall Inks?

[WilsonCQB1911]

Is there any real difference between a Noodler's Bulletproof ink and an Iron Gall ink? I think that the bulletproof inks are considered archival and all that.

[Aurko]

If I recall Iron Gall inks are also considered archival, BUT they're slightly acidic and over very long periods of time (centuries, at the very least) they begin to eat through the paper. Also, I think the bulletproof inks are tested against acetone and bleach and they supposedly do not fade with sunlight whereas I don't know whether or not Iron Gall inks are acetone and bleach proof and from my experience, they do fade with sunlight. Furthermore, Iron Gall may clog your pen.

 

HOWEVER, Iron Galls write on the dry side and most iron gall inks I've seen produce an absolutely lovely effect that I can't get enough of. They are very, very, very good on cheap paper and don't feather. I personally adore iron gall inks, though I think in terms of permanence, Noodler's bullet proof inks tend to be superior from what I hear (I have not actively tested the bullet proof inks).

[Ursus]

I would love to know the answer to that question too!

[Ursus]

Of cause, we cannot make a test that runs over several centuries, but it would be great if anyone had compared, say, their reaction to sunlight over a shorter period of time...

In Denmark there are still a small number of official registrations done by hand and they demand a certain brand of ink. I would just love, love, love to see if some of the Noodler's perform just as good in a test.

[Sinistral1]

I've run across a web site devoted to iron gall ink and it's history. Google is a pen enthusiasts friend.

 

As I understand it, the iron gall ink used in the past has been greatly improved by modern ink makers, chemically I suppose, to be "archival" and not eat holes in either paper or pen. A member here, Amberleedavis, who lives in Las Vegas, conducts an ink fade Olympics each year to test fade resistance and waterproof ability on all sorts of inks.

 

I enjoy the nostalgia of using an iron gall ink - imagining myself as a Thomas Jeffersonish figure at my desk, quill in hand, getting ready to write an updated version of the Declaration of Independance!

[yogalarva]

From the knowledge I've gathered, iron galls are mostly just water resistant while not being particularly resistant to other factors (UV, bleach, chemicals, etc), while bulletproof inks are meant to be resistant to pretty much everything you can throw at them. And that modern IGs are indeed much less harsh than their historical counterparts. In terms of staying power, it really depends on what it will be used for - I use IGs in my journals that I want to last because I don't expect the books to be exposed to much sunlight, but I do want them to last in case of water damage. But if I was writing a lot of documents that have to be forgery-proof, I would probably use bulletproof ink. :-)

 

Also, the functional difference is that IGs rely on the oxidation of iron ions in solution and bulletproof inks rely on a reaction of the ink with the cellulose in the paper.

[haziz]

Iron gall inks have been effectively tested and their longevity proven through centuries of use. You have to take the manufacturer's word about "Bulletproof" inks. They have not been around long enough to truly judge their longevity. The only true test is time.

[WirsPlm]

Bulletproof (Private Reserve calls them invincible I think) inks are very, very different chemically from iron gall inks, they use dyes that react to chemicals present in paper (cellulose, which comes from wood, and is also sometimes found in cloth) to make them permanent. Iron gall inks use iron particles that react with oxygen to permanently bind themselves to paper fibers, similar to carbon inks where the carbon particles intermingle with the paper fibers. So, iron gall inks are more likely to clog pens because the oxygen in the air will cause the iron to oxygenate in your pen if the ink is left in it for too long (I've had this happen, fortunately I caught it in time and emptied the pen out, but you can still see where there's particles stuck in the feed). I would say that bulletproof/invincible inks are superior, because they resist bleach and other chemicals where iron gall doesn't, and also because they're not as fussy.

[WirsPlm]

Iron gall inks have been effectively tested and their longevity proven through centuries of use. You have to take the manufacturer's word about "Bulletproof" inks. They have not been around long enough to truly judge their longevity. The only true test is time.

Kinda, it's true that cellulose reactive inks haven't been used in FPs for very long, but there's quite a lot of stuff done with UV stress testing, bleach and water resistance (check in the Scans subforum), so we know that the bulletproof inks are much more permanent than regular inks. I mean, we take the manufacturers word for with ISO qualified archival inks, and they can't do real tests over centuries either.

[Medsen Fey]

Of cause, we cannot make a test that runs over several centuries, but it would be great if anyone had compared, say, their reaction to sunlight over a shorter period of time...

This site has some interesting lightfastness tests:

http://hudsonvalleysketches.blogspot.com/2012/12/lightfastness-test-results-on-noodlers.html

[WirsPlm]

Of cause, we cannot make a test that runs over several centuries, but it would be great if anyone had compared, say, their reaction to sunlight over a shorter period of time...

 

Lucky you, there's an entire subforum right here on FPN devoted to that kind of thing. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/forum/86-ink-comparisons-scans-and-tests/

[Randal6393]

I write with both Noodler's Bulletproof inks -- Bad Blue Heron, Bad Green Gator, and Black -- and iron-gall inks. Love both families of ink and use them for different reasons. The two inks are as different, though, as cats from dogs. Basically, Noodler's runs to a wet ink that puts down an "undisciplined" line, sort of wants to flood the page. So I restrict the Noodler's to pens I know are dry and "stingy" with ink. On the other hand, iron-gall inks are "disciplined" and restrict themselves to a tight line. In their case, I use a pen that I know to be wet and that puts out the ink.

 

Most of my day-to-day writing is done with a Lamy 2000, 1.0mm italic nib, and Noodler's Bulletproof Black. Can write on about anything that has cellulose, get a full, easily-read thick line that goes well with cursive italic handwriting. Don't have to worry about water -- you could soak the page and still have easily-read handwriting left. A pretty hand that looks good and is legible.

 

When I want to copy out a song or poetry or do something special, I pick up a Pelikan M200 or Levenger TruWriter, both with 1.0mm italic nibs and filled with Chesterfield Archival Vault ink. A fountain pen iron-gall, the line is fainter than the Noodler's line, but with variability -- maximum shading, good thick-thin variablility, very tightly controlled line. Makes a classical letter, looks like something written in the 15th century. Again, the words are locked onto the page and there to stay. The colors of the ink also add to the character of the line -- a true blue-black, goes on faintly blue, deepens to a black with light blue highlights.

 

Would advise getting a few vials of samples ink from Goulet Pens and trying it out. Find out what you like and why. Then go have fun with your writing.

 

Enjoy,

[JakobS]

Modern Iron Gall inks will not eat through paper as some formations of them have in the past for three reasons:

 

1. Fountain pen friendly IG inks are far less acidic than those used throughout history, and those currently used for dip pens

 

2. The reaction that caused the IG ink to "eat" through the paper was due not only to the acidity of the ink, but also the acidity of the paper, and now that even your most basic paper is more often than not acid free that reaction is less likely to occur.

 

3. Modern IG inks have more consistent manufacturing processes, whereas in previous centuries, one batch or even bottle of ink from the same manufacture could be less stable (more acidic) than the other.

 

The waterproof, and light proof ability of modern Iron Gall inks really depends upon how concentrated the line is when writing, the deeper black the writing gets the less UV fading will occur. I find the blue black IG inks to be rather waterproof no matter what concentration though. R&K Scabiosa will wash off more than the others in my experience.

 

I find that most of the bulletproof qualities to be unnecessary these days, with the use of checks dramatically on the decrease, and the rise of most fraud being cyber based, or unrelated to anything you have actually signed, the most important qualities are waterproofness and UV degradation. As long as you don't leave your notebooks in front of a window, or under intense UV lights it will more likely than not stick around for a rather long time.

Edited February 24, 2014 by JakobS

[mhosea]

Kinda, it's true that cellulose reactive inks haven't been used in FPs for very long, but there's quite a lot of stuff done with UV stress testing, bleach and water resistance (check in the Scans subforum), so we know that the bulletproof inks are much more permanent than regular inks. I mean, we take the manufacturers word for with ISO qualified archival inks, and they can't do real tests over centuries either.

 

Skepticism should be applied without bias. We are not using classical IG ink formulations, so if one wishes to take up the position of skeptic, there is some room there for wondering whether the differences that make modern IG inks usable in fountain pens might have implications to their archival qualities. Do I expect any problem? No, but then again, cellulose reactive dyes have been around for awhile now, being applied to cellulose fibers of various ilks, just not used in FPs for all that long. I don't expect any problem with them, either.

 

BTW, one thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned above is that the blue-black IG inks ESSRI and Hero 232 clean out of pens rather easily. Noodler's cellulose-reactive inks also tend to clean out easily enough, but a thin film left on the nib and perhaps on other parts is common. Ultrasonic cleaning can remove it, IME, but if you don't use an ultrasonic cleaner, take a look at the nib next to and leading just under the feed after flushing a Noodler's bulletproof ink out of a pen. I don't know about you, but I often see a residue there, and when I recently transferred Noodler's Heart of Darkness to a different bottle, the same residue lined the bottle after I had rinsed it out, even with soap. The mitigating factors are that it doesn't thicken ever, as far as I can tell, and it just wipes away, but I can't say that I like that sort of thing. OTOH, IG inks can conceivably throw an insoluble (in water) precipitate under some circumstances. I have seen this in a sample vial with ESSRI, but I have not yet seen it in a pen. Finally, you can use the typical ammonia-based flushing solution with cellulose reactive inks but not with IG inks. It's no real problem to use an acetic acid based flush, but it adds a little complexity to the inkophile's life.

[nomadhacker]

Iron gall inks have been effectively tested and their longevity proven through centuries of use. You have to take the manufacturer's word about "Bulletproof" inks. They have not been around long enough to truly judge their longevity. The only true test is time.

 

The longevity though is based on scientific principles that are well known. The idea that you have to wait a couple hundred years to see what the longevity really is unnecessary. As long as you know what the chemical properties are that you're dealing with. And what the parameters are of the likely storage environment. Basically it's just chemical math.

 

What I wonder is about the life span of the chemical dyes themselves. The bond they form with the paper notwithstanding, iron and Carbon are known to stick around over a long time period. The dyes I would like to know what their chemical half-life is.

Edited February 26, 2014 by nomadhacker

[amberleadavis]

I can tell you from my own experiments (and looking at documents like the US Constitution), that IG ink does not necessarily mean archival.

 

Not all the bullet proof inks have been fade proof (see Year of the Golden Pig), but on the whole the Noodler's BP inks have held up in my fade experiments. Not all the IG inks held up to 4 months in the Las Vegas summer sun. I've been pretty abusive to the inks I've tested. KTC is the most invincible ink I've ever tested, but it isn't listed as bullet proof.

 

You can see some of the experiments here on FPN.

[Ursus]

 

I can tell you from my own experiments (and looking at documents like the US Constitution), that IG ink does not necessarily mean archival....Not all the IG inks held up to 4 months in the Las Vegas summer sun.

Archives usually don't place documents in the sun. If an ink lasts for 300 years in a closed book made of acid free paper it's good enought for archives. With modern equipment documents can be read even if the ink is no longer visible to the human eye.

In Denmark, I believe that only one singe kind of ink is allowed (talking about the small parts of civil registration still done by hand, and the like ); - that is, most kinds of archival inks are seen as inadequate for official use anyway.

[amberleadavis]

Archives usually don't place documents in the sun. If an ink lasts for 300 years in a closed book made of acid free paper it's good enought for archives. With modern equipment documents can be read even if the ink is no longer visible to the human eye.

In Denmark, I believe that only one singe kind of ink is allowed (talking about the small parts of civil registration still done by hand, and the like ); - that is, most kinds of archival inks are seen as inadequate for official use anyway.

 

 

Hopefully, not, but I use my inks for a lot of different things including my drawings and doodles. I can't tell you how sad I am to see that one of the large projects I did with Akkerman Orange has faded within 2 years in a hallway. The piece is framed behind UV protective glass, receives no direct sun and has no direct light of any kind.

 

Even our Constitution which was written with an IG ink has faded and it to has been kept out of the sun.

 

The purpose of the sun experiments is to show the effects of the UV rays in a shortened time span - if it fades in 4 months in our sun, it will fade even in your house with no direct exposure.

[JakobS]

The US constitution was not treated in any kind of archival sense until around 1951 when it was finally preserved in a proper enclosure, and then entrusted to the national archives in 1952. It moved around the Northeast more than seventeen times throughout its life to that point, being carried and stored in different environments, and buildings, including a 35 year stint (1841-1876) in a hallway in front of a window with direct sunlight at the Patent Office in Washington DC. In 2001, the US Constitution was placed in a far better archival enclosure that sets the document far back from the glass, and is filled with argon to decrease deterioration.

 

When we are talking about notebooks or paper that will be placed in a dark desk or storage drawer, exposed to little travel, or display, on acid free paper, I cannot fathom a similar result to what the US Constitution has been put through in its lifetime. The same amount of UV that an ink on paper receives being taped to a window for four months, or 35 years is simply not going to be the same amount the ink on paper stored away in drawers, or even placed closed on a shelf will receive in decades, or possibly centuries of time. True the modern IG's that are safe for fountain pens may not be as archival as those for dip pens, but given that they are at least given a fair shake in life (not 35 years of display in direct sunlight), and that formulations are also more consistent, I would challenge that traditional blue black IG inks have the archival longevity (placed in display or stored) of any bulletproof ink that Noodlers or Private Reserve produce.

 

Orange and red inks are notorious for their fading, even Nathan at Noodlers states that the bulletproof qualities of his inks is weakest in his orange and red varieties such as Red Fox.

Edited March 4, 2014 by JakobS

[amberleadavis]

Jakob, check out the thread about the Constitution, turns out the worst damage was done after 1951. Who knew? Bottom line, I have had ink in closed journals that were locked away in dark cool places fade away. I can't tell you how frustrating that is. Also, see my explanation above about my own artwork. You are assuming that my paper will be locked away in cool dark places - that isn't likely when you live in the desert.