Bleach Vs Amonia To Clean Out Old Ink?

[markh]

I sometimes use ammonia (usually diluted) to clean ink out of pens. Works very well in dissolving old ink.

 

My understanding is that it's effective because most modern inks are based on aniline dye technology (which is ammonia based). It dissolves old ink quite well.

 

At the L.A. Pen Show, I was having a conversation with a well known and experienced pen repair person. His comment was that he would never use ammonia - it damages pens. His recommendation to remove old ink (if water isn't enough) was to use bleach.

 

I would never have considered using bleach in a pen, and would assume that it would do damage. I've never had a pen damaged with ammonia, though I'm careful to limit the exposure time to a few minutes or much less.

 

Any comment?? Anyone have experience using bleach inside pens to remove ink???

 

 

(BTW, I'm not talking about using bleach on the outside - I use it on pipe bits that are made of ebonite or hard rubber, so I know exactly what it would do. In that application its very effective, but it requires buffing after the bleach soak. But that's a different story)

 

.

[hruodger]

I've always used ammonia, and never had any damaged pen because of it. And also as you say, modern inks are aniline-ammonia based; so the best logical choice to remove ink would be ammonia.

 

Never heard of bleach to clean a pen. I'll ask the cat for his opinion, even for a try on a cheap pen. It scares me the fact of having a bleached black pen lol.

 

Greetings.

[Ron Z]

Whomever you talked to must have had a brain fade, got their wires crossed, or you heard wrong. I would NEVER recommend using bleach in a pen, but use ammonia on a regular basis and have used it for the last 25 years for cleaning pens. I wouldn't use bleach in a pen even when it's contaminated with mold.

[Sasha Royale]

CAUTION ! Ammonia + Chlorine = DEATH .

 

Dilute ammonia and water solution will eventually desolve dried ink.

I prefer plain, clean water and time, whenever possible. When the

ammonia/water solution evaporates, there is no residue. Not so with

Chlorine bleech.

 

Did you ever get chlorine bleech on your hand ? Afterward there is

a "sliminess" on your hand. That is your skin falling off ! Chlorine

bleech is, biologically, extremely caustic. If you use it, leave NO

trace behind. Can't say that it will hurt your pen, but it can't be

good for it.

 

CAUTION ! Ammonia + Chlorine = DEATH . (This is no joke.)

[Harsh108]

Someone had told me once to use diluted soap water to clean pen, Any suggestions on that?

 

Harsh

[hbquikcomjamesl]

To elaborate on

CAUTION ! Ammonia + Chlorine = DEATH . (This is no joke.)

 

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite#Reactions

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite#Safety

 

or to summarize, sodium hypochlorite reacts with an awful lot of common household chemicals, frequently producing really nasty stuff. For example, mix household bleach with hydrochloric ("muriatic") acid, and you get a cloud of chlorine gas.

 

At any rate, I rarely use anything stronger than plain water to clean pens.

Edited March 19, 2013 by hbquikcomjamesl

[hruodger]

Taking into account what has been written about the ammonia and bleach, and considering what the cat told me; maybe the recommendation was something like a black humor joke!!!

[markh]

Someone had told me once to use diluted soap water to clean pen, Any suggestions on that?

 

Harsh

 

I sometimes use a small amount of dish detergent, or a diluted amount of 409. The more you use, the longer you need to rinse to get it all out.

 

Particularly on new pens, where there might be some manufacturing oils left, either is very effective. They will also remove ink, but IMO ammonia is more effective.

 

 

.

[Harsh108]

Someone had told me once to use diluted soap water to clean pen, Any suggestions on that?

 

Harsh

 

I sometimes use a small amount of dish detergent, or a diluted amount of 409. The more you use, the longer you need to rinse to get it all out.

 

Particularly on new pens, where there might be some manufacturing oils left, either is very effective. They will also remove ink, but IMO ammonia is more effective.

 

 

.

 

 

Thank You. I am gonna try this with dish detergent. I am little afraid of using ammonia on my Mont Blancs.

 

Harsh

[markh]

Whomever you talked to must have had a brain fade, got their wires crossed, or you heard wrong. I would NEVER recommend using bleach in a pen, but use ammonia on a regular basis and have used it for the last 25 years for cleaning pens. I wouldn't use bleach in a pen even when it's contaminated with mold.

 

At least one store (The Fountain Pen Shop in L.A. - Fred Krinke) had a table and sold a cleaner that I'm pretty sure had sodium hypochlorite - bleach - as the cleaning agent. I would never have noticed this, except I saw it after my conversation with the pen repair guy.

 

Maybe I dreamed all this up, but I don't think so...

 

 

.

[warblerick]

I would use ammonia also. The ink-stain remover Amodex is ammonia based, I believe, and that's what we use to remove ink from our hands, right? Well, I actually use a squirt of Windex (the kind with ammonia, not the vinegar kind) to clean ink from my hands (I learned this from Bert at Bertram's Inkwell), and it works very well. So why not pen parts too.

 

FYI, (white)vinegar will kill mold on pen parts, should the need arise, and shouldn't do any harm to the pen, if rinsed well.

 

Rick

[FarmBoy]

I always enjoy these chemistry discussions.

 

Some things to consider.

 

Ammonia solutions are basic.

Ammonia is a reducing agent.

Chlorine bleach is an oxidizing agent.

Ink is a mixture of small molecules (aka chemicals) in a solvent (more chemicals) mixture.

Your pen parts are most likely made of a polymer (aka big molecules).

Polymers are inert with respect to some solvents.

Different polymers behave differently when exposed to solvents.

Water (also a chemical) is a protocol solvent and neutral in pH.

pH is important on many fronts.

Taube liked ammonia as a ligand. (not really relavent)

The metal parts of your pen do not like ammonia or bleach. (see Taube)

Chlorine bleach likely acts to remove ink be reacting with it.

Ammonia likely acts to remove ink by deprotonating it to form an ion that is soluble.

 

Interesting discussion.

[Koyote]

I always enjoy these chemistry discussions.

 

Some things to consider.

 

Ammonia solutions are basic.

Ammonia is a reducing agent.

Chlorine bleach is an oxidizing agent.

Ink is a mixture of small molecules (aka chemicals) in a solvent (more chemicals) mixture.

Your pen parts are most likely made of a polymer (aka big molecules).

Polymers are inert with respect to some solvents.

Different polymers behave differently when exposed to solvents.

Water (also a chemical) is a protocol solvent and neutral in pH.

pH is important on many fronts.

Taube liked ammonia as a ligand. (not really relavent)

The metal parts of your pen do not like ammonia or bleach. (see Taube)

Chlorine bleach likely acts to remove ink be reacting with it.

Ammonia likely acts to remove ink by deprotonating it to form an ion that is soluble.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

...And that's why I became a social scientist.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Knock-Knock.

Who's there?

Ammonia.

Ammonia who?

 

Ammonia bird in a gilded cage.

 

[pokermind]

This is why FPN is so dang useful, you can benefit from other people's lessons learned. You could probably get away with short term exposure to bleach, but why take the chance. Sticky with water, soapy water, or diluted ammonia.

[inkstainedruth]

I *have* read somewhere on FPN that diluted bleach is useful for cleaning the Noodler's Bay State series inks out of pens. Because you *don't* want to have them mixing with other inks (they're alkaline, whereas most inks are ph neutral to acidic). I cannot attest to its use personally, however (the only pen that has BSB in it is a cheapie clear demonstrator, and I don't care if it gets stained or not).

For pretty much everything else I used ammonia diluted in distilled water, with a drop or two of Dawn dish detergent (I like Dawn for its grease/oil cutting abilities, in general -- YMMV). The only time you *don't* want to used ammonia solution (at least not to begin with) is with iron gall inks -- in that case you want to do a flush with a white vinegar solution first, then flush with water; after that I will use the ammonia solution.

Some people scoff at using distilled water over plain old tap water -- but they haven't seen the crusty mineral deposits on my faucets.

I do have to wonder a bit, though. I used to use a small glass bottle (repurposed from what I think was a fancy spice jar with a cork topper) to flush pens in. A couple of weeks ago, though, I discovered a *hole* in the bottle (not a crack, an actual hole). Not sure if it was one of the bubbles in the glass, or along the seam where the two parts of the bottle were fused together, but it was certainly weird (I was wondering if the ammonia disolved the seal somehow, but it was just the one hole, not the entire seam). No, sorry, can't check and no pix -- the cat apparently knocked if off the bathroom counter and it broke while we were out of town, and the cleaning lady found it and swept up all the glass.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[JeffPDX2]

More of a question about stinky pens rather than cleaning out old ink, but it is a cleaning issue.

 

Preface: the danger of a reaction with ammonia is understood and acknowledged (I love that geeky chemistry talk. .

 

I have an Aurora Talentum that has developed a rancid 'dirty wash cloth' smell. This smell is extremely persistent, and has resisted every attempt to clean. I have tried ammonia, commercial pen flush, airing, etc. to no avail. Last night, I completely disassembled the pen (including the disassembly of the converter, removal of the clip, removing the nib from the section) and cleaned and dried each component. The smell persists regardless of the ink being used, so it is definitely the pen.

 

When I went to fill the pen this morning, you guessed it: odor is still there.

 

So I am at my wits end. I know that when I was a kid (yea, THAT was a long time ago! :-) ) working in restaurants, we would keep the towels used to wipe down the tables in a bucket filled with a couple of inches of a diluted water/bleach mix to avoid that smell and kill whatever little beasties are responsible for the odor.

 

So I am about to try filling the pen with a dilute bleach/water mix and let it sit for 10 minutes and then do a thorough flush....but I thought I would check with my friends at FPN. My Talentum's are my favorite pens, and I would hate to ruin this one by taking an ill-advised step.

 

Your thoughts?

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Hmm. Just read that another possible product of an ammonia/hypochlorite reaction is hydrazine. Which is nasty stuff, used as a hypergolic rocket fuel.

 

On the other hand, ammonia and hydrochloric acid (and NOTHING else but maybe some water!) simply produce (comparatively innocuous) ammonium chloride.

[pen lady]

If your bleach solution doesn't work, how about baking soda in a solution? You've probably got a box of it in your fridge to kill odours. It's pretty benign stuff, so even if it doesn't help, it won't harm your pen.

[kirchh]

At the L.A. Pen Show, I was having a conversation with a well known and experienced pen repair person. His comment was that he would never use ammonia - it damages pens. His recommendation to remove old ink (if water isn't enough) was to use bleach.

 

What was his name?

 

--Daniel