Copperplate & Spencerian

[caliken]

There is some confusion about the differences between Copperplate & Spencerian scripts.

 

Both these examples were written with the same nib - an Esterbrook 357, but there, the comparison ends.

Although they have a common lineage, they are totally different in construction.

As a matter of interest, the Copperplate capital I was written in one stroke whereas the Spencerian capital Y required two strokes, with the paper being turned for the final swelled flourish. The heavy, swelled stroke in the letter Y was drawn and filled in.

 

The quote is from George Bernard Shaw.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/CopperplateampSpencerian800.jpg

Edited February 6, 2013 by caliken

[FPaholic]

There is some confusion about the differences between Copperplate & Spencerian scripts.

 

Both these examples were written with the same nib - an Esterbrook 357, but there, the comparison ends.

Although they have a common lineage, they are totally different in construction.

As a matter of interest, the Copperplate capital I was written in one stroke whereas the Spencerian capital Y required two strokes, with the paper being turned for the final swelled flourish. The heavy, swelled stroke in the letter Y was drawn and filled in.

 

The quote is from George Bernard Shaw.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/CopperplateampSpencerian800.jpg

 

Just beautiful to look at.

 

Would you end the comparison at "different" or would you describe one's construction as more difficult than the other? I ask because I prefer Copperplate aesthetically but (my recent Topic in this forum as definitive proof) I'm a beginner.

 

Thanks for the post! Just lovely.

[smk]

What a lovely example of two fine lettering styles. It's a joy to look at your beautiful lettering Ken.

 

Salman

[schin]

Ken, am I correct in assuming Copperplate takes longer and more effort to write? Because it needs accents on every letter, whereas Spencerian only needs an accent every once in a while?

 

I am also surprised that on the copperplate I, you started on the 'end' of the letter (at the bottom) instead of the 'beginning' (above the m), which to me would be easier. is there a reason for that?

[caliken]

Would you end the comparison at "different" or would you describe one's construction as more difficult than the other? I ask because I prefer Copperplate aesthetically but (my recent Topic in this forum as definitive proof) I'm a beginner.

 

Which is more difficult than the other? This is a question often asked, and the opinions seem to be evenly divided. The truth is that that are both fairly difficult to master, but both are immensely satisfying, once you get there. I feel that poorly written Copperplate is more obvious than poor Spencerian, because of the disciplines involved, but this is entirely subjective, and of course, can never be proved.

 

Ken

[caliken]

Ken, am I correct in assuming Copperplate takes longer and more effort to write? Because it needs accents on every letter, whereas Spencerian only needs an accent every once in a while?

 

I am also surprised that on the copperplate I, you started on the 'end' of the letter (at the bottom) instead of the 'beginning' (above the m), which to me would be easier. is there a reason for that?

 

As you surmised, Copperplate takes considerably longer to write because every letter is shaded on downstrokes. Furthermore, every shaded stoke is as close as possible to the same width as every other. It isn't really practical as everyday handwriting unless it is written monoline, without shading. Spencerian, on the other hand, can easily be adopted as everyday handwriting, especially in its monoline version (Business Writing).

 

The Copperplate I is based on an 18th century model. To achieve the desired effect, it's written in 'reverse' so that all the shades become hairlines and all the hairlines become shades. If it were written normally, starting at the top, the shades/hairlines would be reversed and an entirely different letter would result.

Try it yourself, and you'll see what I mean!

 

Ken

Edited February 6, 2013 by caliken

[schin]

Ken, due to the constant and consistent shades on copperplate, should I surmise that it is better to use a more flexible nib for it such as the Hunt 56 or Zebra and a stiffer nib for Spencerian such as Nikko G?

 

I will try the reverse I as you mentioned, but even tracing it with my eye makes me nervous. It looks like it requires such pre-planning for the perfect spaces between the ovals, and not to mention the upstrokes.. oh the upstrokes.

[hlyuqi]

Caliken,

 

Glad to see your post!

The Capital A was finished in just one stroke? Wow, that looks really difficult for me!

One question, what X-height did you use in writing the Copperplate here? I am recently trying to write letters in small size.For example, I wrote this Engraver's Script in a X-height of about 3mm, and I found it hard to control my pen. Do you have similar experience?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/8451546027_8510680eab_h.jpg

 

BTW, I really want to see the original of your work in this post. What I mean "original" is no computer technique involved, just the original state when you scanned or photographed it. Can you please satisify my little request?

 

Best,

Ritchie

[dickydotcom]

Beautiful as always.

 

I notice the Spencerian has looped ascenders and the Copperplate doesn't. Is there a version of Copperplate that does?

 

2nd question: The nib. Is that a dip pen or fountain?

 

Dick D

[LicLuigi]

Nice job!Matter or fact,I'd say that your roundhand is the best of those I've ever seen.But as Spen,I think your loop remains to be examed.

[caliken]

One question, what X-height did you use in writing the Copperplate here? I am recently trying to write letters in small size.For example, I wrote this Engraver's Script in a X-height of about 3mm, and I found it hard to control my pen. Do you have similar experience?

BTW, I really want to see the original of your work in this post. What I mean "original" is no computer technique involved, just the original state when you scanned or photographed it. Can you please satisify my little request?

 

This is a photo of the original writing. I never post this way, as it never looks as good as a flatbed scanned image IMO. I like to have an image on screen, which is an accurate representation of the original. On my original post you can see a crisp, clean, sharp, black and white image with no distortion which is as close as possible to the original. It looks like a printed book page, which is my objective.

 

If you're interested, my procedure was as follows -

 

I did several rough sketches to establish a good, attractive layout. I then wrote/drew the two interlocking capitals I & Y several times until I was satisfied with the look and balance. Once the ink was dry, I lightly pencilled in the guidelines - 6mm x height for Copperplate and 4mm x height for Spencerian. Using the same nib for both, I then wrote the Copperplate and Spencerian texts. Once dry, I removed the pencil lines before flatbed scanning.

 

I would never consider photographing and uploading, without specialist photo equipment. Even then, I doubt if the finished result would compare with the flatbed scanned results.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/coloured500.jpg

 

Here's a case in point -

 

I posted this a couple of years ago, as a demonstration of Copperplate written in Gouache. This sharp, clean image on a white background, was scanned direct from the artwork. All the colours have reproduced accurately. I could never hope to match this, by photographing the original, and doing it that way.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Gouache600.jpg

 

 

Your small Engraver's Script example is most impressive. This is extremely difficult to do, with controlled accuracy.

 

Ken

Edited February 7, 2013 by caliken

[caliken]

I notice the Spencerian has looped ascenders and the Copperplate doesn't. Is there a version of Copperplate that does?

2nd question: The nib. Is that a dip pen or fountain?

 

I usually base my Copperplate on "The Universal Penman" 18th century examples in which almost all ascenders are straight. In later examples of Copperplate, looped ascenders are sometimes used, as in the drawn version - Engraver's Script.

 

This was written with an Esterbrook 357 nib fitted in an oblique penholder.

 

Ken

[caliken]

Ken, due to the constant and consistent shades on copperplate, should I surmise that it is better to use a more flexible nib for it such as the Hunt 56 or Zebra and a stiffer nib for Spencerian such as Nikko G?

 

I think that the opposite, is the case.

 

Spencerian, especially Ornamental Penmanship, requires a very flexible nib which can produce the large swelled strokes with ease. The same nib for Copperplate can be problematic as excessive flexibilty makes the control of even, parallel downstrokes difficult to control. If I'm writing Copperplate and I pick up a Hunt 101 by mistake, I am instantly aware that my control isn't what it should be, as the nib is too flexible. On the other hand, I would have to work quite hard to produce large swelled strokes with a Gillott 303.

If you would like to read more on the subject, look for Bob Hurford's in-depth survey of flexible nibs on the IAMPETH site.

 

Ken

Edited February 7, 2013 by caliken

[dickydotcom]

I notice the Spencerian has looped ascenders and the Copperplate doesn't. Is there a version of Copperplate that does?

2nd question: The nib. Is that a dip pen or fountain?

 

I usually base my Copperplate on "The Universal Penman" 18th century examples in which almost all ascenders are straight. In later examples of Copperplate, looped ascenders are sometimes used, as in the drawn version - Engraver's Script.

 

This was written with an Esterbrook 357 nib fitted in an oblique penholder.

 

Ken

Many thanks. Anything that simplifies things is good in my book.

Dick D

[MusinkMan]

Hahahaha....O My God, Ken. I was just about to post a photo of my pathetic pointed pen efforts, but now I think I'll wait a bit. This is fantastic. It's so good, like a machine or something. Lord knows how you do that so perfectly every time. I've been working on my meager pointed pen efforts though...making some improvement with the tips you've given me. Not many "sproingy sprays" anymore (but I do forget myself and get one every now and then). The difference is, when it happens I know why...before you helped me, I didn't know the cause. So now I'm working on fixing! And...and...and...I'm awaiting my Century oblique holder to arrive any day now, and I can't wait. Kind of silly for a 55 yr. old man (me) to be this excited about something like that. But hey, I've wanted to learn this stuff for a long time, since my teenage years and before. No one to help me with it though, so I quickly gave up on it back then. I'm chasing my tail here, but once again I wanted to thank you, and Mickey, and RobbieG, and everyone else who offers words of advice and criticism. Didn't mean to hijack the thread...just wanted to give my "I-am-not-worthy" bow and to again say thanks. PHENOMENAL skills, Ken. Thanks for sharing it!

Edited February 7, 2013 by MusinkMan

[caliken]

I'm awaiting my Century oblique holder to arrive any day now, and I can't wait. Kind of silly for a 55 yr. old man (me) to be this excited about something like that. But hey, I've wanted to learn this stuff for a long time, since my teenage years and before.

 

I'm awaiting some Esterbrook 358 nibs to arrive, and I'm just as excited as you....and I'm a lot older (74) :embarrassed_smile:

 

As long as you're enjoying it, you'll never lose interest and you'll continue to improve. It never seems to end and I'm just as enthusiastic as I was, as a teenager when I first discovered Blackletter Script at German lessons in school. 60 years later, I'm still learning, and practicing all the time. That's the beauty of this craft. Nobody knows it all, and there are always new discoveries just around the corner.

 

Please continue to post.

 

Ken

[caliken]

What a lovely example of two fine lettering styles. It's a joy to look at your beautiful lettering Ken.

 

Salman : FPaholic : Schin : MusinkMan : hyluqi : dickydotcom : LicLuigi

 

Your interest in my work and your comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

Ken

[mboschm]

Just one thing. The Esterbrook 358 is more apt for spencerian compared to the 357, is it?

Thanks a lot!

[tenurepro]

great post... thanks

[caliken]

Just one thing. The Esterbrook 358 is more apt for spencerian compared to the 357, is it?

Thanks a lot!

 

I haven't tried the 358 nibs yet (I'm awaiting delivery) but the following info from Mickey lifted from another topic, may help. He really knows his nibs and was spot on with his assessment of the 357 IMO.

 

I would be hesitant about suggesting that the Esterbrook 358 is in any way less capable than the 357. It's more a matter of different horses for different courses. The 358 has more snap back than the 357. The 357 once spread (and does spread easily) will tend to stay spread until almost completely released, whereas the amount of spread from a 358 tracks the pressure applied to it more closely. Because of this, I believe the 358 is a better (easier) nib for producing the balanced shades of Spencerian and the 357 is the better nib for Copperplate.