Really Confused About Sailor Naming Conventions

[imahawki]

I THINK I figured out that a Sapporo is a PG Slim and Realo is a piston filler (though for the PG and 1911, which version of the pen size is it, the standard?). But what is a Profit?

[imahawki]

Anyone?

[Silent Speaker]

Test

[Silent Speaker]

Problems posting today. Lots of lag for some reason.

 

Others will hopefully correct any mistakes and fill in the gaps, but here's my understanding of it:

 

For the internal Japanese market, Sailor calls these pen shapes the "Profit" (the cigar/torpedo shaped one) and the "Progear" (the flattop) and has various variants thereof; there's many different sizes, materials and finishes.

 

There's the smaller variants: the Profit and Progear "Slims" (and the progear mini's....and the progear mini slim's - sheesh). I'm not sure how they distinguish in Japan between the large Profit and the smaller one, though I know that there's no mini variant (or mini slim) of that shape.

 

And there's the special and King of Pen variants: For the piston filling type there's the "Profit Realo" and "Progear Realo", which are pretty much the same size as the non-slim Progear/fits. And, there's also the "King of Pen" Progear, which is the enormous flatop, but the cigar-like KOP is just called "King of Pen", no "Profit" added to that name I believe.

 

The international market name for the Profit is the "1911" (in Large and Standard variants), and the Progear is the Professional Gear. The smaller Professional Gear, the Slim, used to be called the "Sapporo", but that name appears to have been phased out over the past year or so.

 

I think there are other nuances to Sailor's messy internal/external naming scheme but that's the gist of it as far as I know, presented in my usual messy and convoluted manner.

[studiohead]

Problems posting today. Lots of lag for some reason.

 

Others will hopefully correct any mistakes and fill in the gaps, but here's my understanding of it:

 

For the internal Japanese market, Sailor calls these pen shapes the "Profit" (the cigar/torpedo shaped one) and the "Progear" (the flattop) and has various variants thereof; there's many different sizes, materials and finishes.

 

There's the smaller variants: the Profit and Progear "Slims" (and the progear mini's....and the progear mini slim's - sheesh). I'm not sure how they distinguish in Japan between the large Profit and the smaller one, though I know that there's no mini variant (or mini slim) of that shape.

 

And there's the special and King of Pen variants: For the piston filling type there's the "Profit Realo" and "Progear Realo", which are pretty much the same size as the non-slim Progear/fits. And, there's also the "King of Pen" Progear, which is the enormous flatop, but the cigar-like KOP is just called "King of Pen", no "Profit" added to that name I believe.

 

The international market name for the Profit is the "1911" (in Large and Standard variants), and the Progear is the Professional Gear. The smaller Professional Gear, the Slim, used to be called the "Sapporo", but that name appears to have been phased out over the past year or so.

 

I think there are other nuances to Sailor's messy internal/external naming scheme but that's the gist of it as far as I know, presented in my usual messy and convoluted manner.

 

More or less correct, the other item to note is that the nib type will also figure in the discussions. The Profit/1911 and Professional Gear Slim/Sapporo has a 14k Nib, The larger sizes will have the 21k nib and the KOP has their own huge nib. Anything lower than this will have a steel nib. The exception of the round cigar shape which is still called a Profit is that of a Young Profit. The Junior Profit on the other hand has the round cigar shape. But all of these will fall under the steel nib.

[JLS1]

Problems posting today. Lots of lag for some reason.

 

Others will hopefully correct any mistakes and fill in the gaps, but here's my understanding of it:

 

For the internal Japanese market, Sailor calls these pen shapes the "Profit" (the cigar/torpedo shaped one) and the "Progear" (the flattop) and has various variants thereof; there's many different sizes, materials and finishes.

 

There's the smaller variants: the Profit and Progear "Slims" (and the progear mini's....and the progear mini slim's - sheesh). I'm not sure how they distinguish in Japan between the large Profit and the smaller one, though I know that there's no mini variant (or mini slim) of that shape.

 

And there's the special and King of Pen variants: For the piston filling type there's the "Profit Realo" and "Progear Realo", which are pretty much the same size as the non-slim Progear/fits. And, there's also the "King of Pen" Progear, which is the enormous flatop, but the cigar-like KOP is just called "King of Pen", no "Profit" added to that name I believe.

 

The international market name for the Profit is the "1911" (in Large and Standard variants), and the Progear is the Professional Gear. The smaller Professional Gear, the Slim, used to be called the "Sapporo", but that name appears to have been phased out over the past year or so.

 

I think there are other nuances to Sailor's messy internal/external naming scheme but that's the gist of it as far as I know, presented in my usual messy and convoluted manner.

 

I was going to answer but I think you've got it covered pretty well...

[paultyler_82]

Basically what Silent Speaker said.

 

Profit is a JP market name for the torpedo-shaped pens. In Japan they are 1911 Profit, in the US they are simply 1911. 1911 is of course, in honor of the founding date of Sailor.

Pro Gear is the all market name for the flat-tops, including the KoP sized Pro Gear which is usually marketed as the Pro Gear King of Pen.

The Profit name is excluded from the torpedo-shaped KoPs.

Realo refers to the piston-filler system, any Sailor with Realo on the end of it's name is a Piston-fill. There is only one pen just called a Realo, the King of Pen based 95th anniversary REALO, otherwise it's either a Pro Gear Realo or a 1911 Realo.

Sapporo is the JP market name for the Pro Gear Slim, sometimes the name was used in the US market, I'm not sure if Sailor is officially using this name in it's catalog anymore in any market.

Edited January 30, 2013 by paultyler_82

[Wile E Coyote]

Yes...what you said.

 

Standard Profit (JP) = 1911 Mid = 1911 Colors (Smaller 1911 with 14k nib)

 

Profit 21 (JP) = 1911 Full size (Larger 1911 with 21k nib)

 

The easiest way I've figured to distinguish is the nib carat ie.( 21k nib bigger pen than 14k nib)

[Silent Speaker]

The Profit/1911 and Professional Gear Slim/Sapporo has a 14k Nib, The larger sizes will have the 21k nib...

 

 

Yes...what you said.

 

Standard Profit (JP) = 1911 Mid = 1911 Colors (Smaller 1911 with 14k nib)

 

Profit 21 (JP) = 1911 Full size (Larger 1911 with 21k nib)

 

The easiest way I've figured to distinguish is the nib carat ie.( 21k nib bigger pen than 14k nib)

 

 

Though this is generally a good rule of thumb it is not definite (no that would make too much sense!).

 

There are smaller variants of the profit (and perhaps the progear as well) that come with 21kt nibs. 21kt's are not exclusive to the larger models, so if you happen to be scouring ebay or something and want the larger pen size, you have to make sure you've sighted the right pen.

[twdpens]

The easiest way I've figured to distinguish is the nib carat ie.( 21k nib bigger pen than 14k nib)

 

This is a good way of distinguishing the various models. There is also the nib size:

 

 

1. 
    
   
2. 14k = small size nib = 1911 (aka 1911m, or "small" 1911), Sapporo (aka Professional Gear Slim) and Sapporo Mini (aka Professional Gear Slim Mini). Nib colour matches trim colour.
   
3. 21k = large size nib = 1911 Classic (aka "large 1911) and Professional Gear ranges (including Realo variants). Nib colour matches trim colour, but the Professional Gear has a 2-tone nib.
   
4. 21k special nibs (eg Naginata Togi, Cross Emperor, Saibi Togi etc) = 1911 and ProGear Ranges (availability sometimes depends on market).
   
5. 21k King of Pen nib = King of Pen ranges and King Professional Gear (same front section as King of Pen).
   
6. 21k King of Pen speical nibs (eg Naginata Togi, Nagahara Cross Point, Nagahara King Eagle etc) = King of Pen ranges and King Professional Gear
   

 

Also:

Small 1911 and Sapporo models are the same apart from the shape of the ends.

Classic 1911 and Professional Gear models are the same apart from the shape of the ends.

 

Note: the above is a generalisation. There are some models that don't fit these rules but this covers the core ranges.

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[imahawki]

OK, I think I've got it. The main thing that remains confusing is being sure I understand what I'm looking at when looking at the 1911 standard vs. 1911 large.

[paultyler_82]

OK, I think I've got it. The main thing that remains confusing is being sure I understand what I'm looking at when looking at the 1911 standard vs. 1911 large.

 

1911 standard (aka medium)

 

length closed: 5"

length posted: 5.69"

section diameter: .38"

barrel width: .49"

weight: 19.6 g.

 

1911 large (aka full size)

 

closed: 5.5"

posted: 6"

section diameter: .42"

barrel width: .53"

weight: 23.7 g.

[imahawki]

And the full size has a 21k nib, right? Making the price quite a bit higher than the "standard"?

[Wile E Coyote]

And the full size has a 21k nib, right? Making the price quite a bit higher than the "standard"?

 

Yes, the full size is 21k. But the price difference isn't based on the gold content of the nibs. The Full lists for $310, Mid $195 and the difference in gold content is less than $20.

[imahawki]

Right, and worse, I've seen the standard size for $100 on eBay from reputable sellers while the full size (large) is usually closer to $275 or more. WOW.

[tinta]

Not wishing to add any confusion to the Sailor pen naming convention, but.........

 

There are some Profit Junior variants: the machined acrylic "Mozaiques", that are slightly longer & wider (fatter) than the regular mid-size 1911s. These have rhodium plated 14K nibs & furniture.

I'm a happy owner of the red & the brown version.

 

The "Mozaiques" are also available in the Pro-Gear flat top style, with 21K yellow gold nibs & trim.

In addition, Sailor makes KOP Mozaiques, machined from select acrylic blanks, in four colours.

 

ed: for spelling

Edited February 2, 2013 by tinta

[Wile E Coyote]

Right, and worse, I've seen the standard size for $100 on eBay from reputable sellers while the full size (large) is usually closer to $275 or more. WOW.

 

Nibs.com has the full size for $248 ($156 for Mid).

[Garageboy]

So what is the Profit 21? (Sailor 11-1521-220) Looks like a standard (non large size) with a 21k nib?