Jotter Bp Flighter Doesn't Extend Tip - Plastic Ring Inside Tube - What Is It For?

[ScratchyNib]

Hi!

 

Some of you may recognize from another topic about Frontiers. But I also have some Jotters. To complete my set I was missing a ballpoint. I've gotten one today. CT model. I know this isn't a BP dedicated forum, but I reckoned I could get some help since theres so much info about all pens around here.

 

After getting home I promptly wanted to try it out but I was unable to extend the tip. Trying to click it didn't work as some heavy resistance didn't allow for the refill to go all the way down.

 

Opened the pen up, took the refill and the spring out and everything seemed fine. Tried the mechanism by hand applying some pressure to the refill and it did cycle OK. Then I tried a different spring from another pen and still the problem continued. Too much resistance, like a wall, prevented the pen from extending the tip.

 

The I decided to try a different refill. Got some white line gel refills, put one in and it still didn't work.

 

The difference was that when I took the gel refill out, as the refill is slightly more tapered it brought back a small black plastic ring. Found that strange and decided to try the pen again without that tiny bit in.

 

Put the original spring and refill back on and the pen is working nicely. Still the original spring doesn't work with the refill I have. It's too tight and doesn't allow the refill to rotate and get back on the pen. First time I see this happen.

 

However, whats intriguing me is, what was that black plastic ring for? Do all the Jotter have that? Is that somekind of protection device from new BP pens to prevent the tip of the refill being damaged during transport?

 

I haven't bought a new BP for years so I'm at lack of knowledge...

Edited December 10, 2012 by ScratchyNib

[Mike 59]

Hi, The black plastic part you found, is a guider that is normally right down in the tip of the barrel.

You will see it is cone shaped and fits, usually, very tightly inside the barrel.

If you put it onto a refill with a spring, (photo) and slide it down the barrel it will find the correct place to be.

It's job is to keep the refill in the middle of the barrel, and also to give the spring, a flat platform to sit on.

And yes the pen will work without it, but if you have it there just push it back in.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Mike 59

[nxn96]

I'm a long time Flighter bp user. One thing I've noticed is that, over time, the tip at the end of the barrel can become a bit "rough" such that the refill can stick in "mid-depress". The photo of a spring and collar from Mike 59 is not something I've seen in my own Flighter bps, but certainly makes sense given the issue I've experienced over time. My own solution has been to take the Parker refill and "auger" the barrel tip from the base such as to smooth out whatever is causing the refill to stick in the engage/disengage function.

 

Hope this helps.

[ScratchyNib]

My pen hasn't got that big plastic guider. It indeed has a platform for the spring, but that is sitting nicely at the bottom and seems to be metal. It is visible with the aid of a flashlight and you can notice it by inserting a paper clip through the bottom opening. I could get a photo but I'd have to disassemble everything again (I've put everything back in its place to send the pen for warranty).

 

The plastic ring that my pen has isn't even near the shape of the one in Mikes photo.

 

Imagine a finger ring (albeit small enough to fit in the pen's barrel). That is what my pen has. It fits loosely on the refill, I can't feel any difference to the play the refill tip has with the ring on or off the pen, so that doesn't really seem to be a guide (I thought about that too).

 

Forcing the ring into the barrel will just make it go as deep as it can, with almost no resistance, until it hits the "platform" where it sits (or the spring sits if the ring isn't there).

 

With the ring in place I just can't click the pen. Too much resistance. It is maybe 2/3 mm tall but seems to be just enough to render the mechanism useless.

 

The pen seems to work fine without it, and even being an el-cheapo Parker I don't feel parts should be falling of or making it unusable right out of the box.

 

Not to mention that the spring seems to be deformed. Probably because of what seems lack of proper spacing and therefore having some of its loops entangled on others.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ScratchyNib

[Mike 59]

Hi All, The photo I included in the first reply is of an old 'click top' Flighter, so I have taken another photo of a 2010/11 Jotter, the normal type with push button. The spring is a little different, with flared ends to fit the refill better than the previous version.

[ScratchyNib]

Hi All, The photo I included in the first reply is of an old 'click top' Flighter, so I have taken another photo of a 2010/11 Jotter, the normal type with push button. The spring is a little different, with flared ends to fit the refill better than the previous version.

 

The photos came out even worse than I was expecting. And I was expecting bad. I've got to confess I was too lazy to prepare the camera so I just took some pictures with my work phone which as you can see has no auto-focus.

 

They're bad but I reckon they can give you an ideia about what I'm talking about.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ScratchyNib

[Mike 59]

Hi Scratchynib, No, never seen that part before ! Maybe it's a new idea for centering the refill.

A while back a member posted about the jangling noise the refill can make inside a metal Jotter, and he said about winding a turn of tape around it to stop that happening. I did that, but possibly the black washer part you have is a new idea from the makers. All my metal (Flighter) Jotters, from the '70's to now have the cone shaped part in my photo.

(Is this a new or previously owned pen? That black ring looks like an ordinary grommet to me.)

Edited December 11, 2012 by Mike 59

[ScratchyNib]

Hi Scratchynib, No, never seen that part before ! Maybe it's a new idea for centering the refill.

A while back a member posted about the jangling noise the refill can make inside a metal Jotter, and he said about winding a turn of tape around it to stop that happening. I did that, but possibly the black washer part you have is a new idea from the makers. All my metal (Flighter) Jotters, from the '70's to now have the cone shaped part in my photo.

(Is this a new or previously owned pen? That black ring looks like an ordinary grommet to me.)

 

 

Didn't recall the word grommet yesterday! It's just like one, the difference being it is rigid, not flexible as an o-ring or grommet usually are.

 

This is a brand new pen. Taken out of the wrapping as it is and already not working properly. And looking at the inside with the aid of a flashlight I see nothing that even remotely resembles a rubber piece like yours. The barrel has some kind of stopper for the spring/plastic grommet but that seems to either be machined into the barrel or press fitted. When I was trying to work out why the refill didn't extended I even did some force to try and push anything out from the bottom end and that part simply didn't budge.

 

The thing is that with that plastic piece inside the pen the tip of the refill simply doesn't extend. I can move the mechanism, the tip protrudes but a few mm before it should click there is resistance and it doesn't go any further. With the plastic thing out, the pen works fine. Too bad the spring is already a bit mangled.

 

Whats bugging me as I've said is the fact its a brand new pen. I expect things to be functional when I buy them. But I have to say I've been really disappointed with Parkers QC. The Frontier FP I've also recently bought came with some noticeable gouges in the Barrel (sealed package!) I've gotten another Frontier for a friend that fancied mine and the barrel was crooked in relation to the feeder body (this one was promptly traded). Plus this issue with the Jotter. I'm either really unlucky or Parker QC department is sleeping on the clock.

 

And I'm getting these pens from a reputable known vendor not from some shady corner shop. Not the vendors fault I know that.

_____________________________________________________

 

EDIT

 

Reverse engineering at The Fountain Pen Network forums.

 

Having read your post I went and tried two things.

 

Took out the plastic bit and rocked the pen. Indeed the refill noisily wobbles around the tube as you describe.

 

Then I tried one of my white label gel refills (they don't retract properly because the part where the spring sits is a tiny bit longer, therefore the spring hasn't got the necessary length). Put the plastic part after the spring (it came before the spring) and the gel refills work alright.

 

I only managed to take it out first cause my gel refills fit snugly on it and that allowed me to extract it, otherwise I'd never discover the part or why the pen didn't work.

 

The catch on warranting it is that I've gotten the pen while ordering other stuff and cause I saw it was on a 50% sale. So just imagine how cheap I got it. Going there on purpose to complaint would make me spend more on gas alone.

Edited December 12, 2012 by ScratchyNib

[Mike 59]

Hi ScratchyNib, I can't explain that grommet part at all.

It could be a new part to replace the older idea, in which case it doesn't work too well as you say, or it could be used in making the refills in the factory, and 'got out' by mistake.

It might be worth trying it above the spring instead of below it, see if that works.

Just took a photo of my three Flighters, from the '70's?(lower), '80's (middle) and 2011 (top), all using the same black cone guider. I thought they were all like that.

Sounds as if you got a good deal with your pen, too good to return it.

Maybe you have got a prototype that escaped, in which case hold on to it!!

Edited December 12, 2012 by Mike 59

[ScratchyNib]

Some better photos!

 

I've tried to snatch a photo from inside the barrel but it is pretty much impossible. The opening is too small. So I've made the next best thing! A drawing!

 

About trying the grommet in different positions, I've already done and described the result in the previous post.

 

One other thing I've noticed is that this pen has been made in France. All my other Parkers are UK made, and all the ones I've ever seen before were UK made so I didn't even remember to inspect the barrel for that.

 

Warranting wouldn't be returning it but rather trading this one for another. But I must confess I'm getting puzzled as to why this pen appears to be different from "normal" Jotters...

 

About the drawing, I reckon that if the grommet could go down further there wouldn't be any problems. The thing is, it can't/doesn't go any further. Looking at the inside of the barrel I'm able to notice some black bits from trying to force it.

 

Now I can only imagine that if indeed this is some new design, some measurements came off wrong. Assuming that the grommet is there to prevent the refill from dangling inside the barrel, either the "lip" where it stalls should be deeper or the grommet smaller (this assuming it is supposed to be there in the first place!). Assuming that it should work as some kind of spring bumper near the bottom of the barrel (instead of the spring being in direct contact to the metal), then it clearly should be set deeper, but somehow it wasn't.

 

The whys to this, I don't know and I don't think anyone around here does.

[Mike 59]

Hi Scratchynib, Yes thanks for that, I see what you mean with the moulding down in the barrel.

I have never seen that arrangement, it could well be a new idea, but my own Jotter Flighter is made in France, with a datecode of '|||Q', and I bought it in a high street shop, brand new, sealed in Parker packaging in 2011.

If it's any help, I took this photo, and with the pen apart like this I can see right through the barrel, there is nothing else in there.

The black guider part sits at this height in the barrel, (spring in guider photo), not at the very tip.

If it was mine, and it works without the grommet/washer, then that's the answer.

Without buying a new one here to find out, I can't explain it.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Mike 59

[ScratchyNib]

Hi Scratchynib, Yes thanks for that, I see what you mean with the moulding down in the barrel.

I have never seen that arrangement, it could well be a new idea, but my own Jotter Flighter is made in France, with a datecode of '|||Q', and I bought it in a high street shop, brand new, sealed in Parker packaging in 2011.

If it's any help, I took this photo, and with the pen apart like this I can see right through the barrel, there is nothing else in there.

The black guider part sits at this height in the barrel, (spring in guider photo), not at the very tip.

If it was mine, and it works without the grommet/washer, then that's the answer.

Without buying a new one here to find out, I can't explain it.

 

Reviving the thread! I haven't posted earlier cause I haven't been using the Jotter therefore this subject as been left a bit suspended.

 

Spent a big part of the afternoon writing with it (with an original Parker refill in) and I've noticed that it is indeed noisy. Bearable, but you notice it. I remembered about trying it with the grommet. It's possible to write with it in. The pen just has to be assembled with the mechanism already set to "open" (the problem has always been the minimal extra micro mm that it takes to cycle the refill).

 

With the grommet in it is indeed silent so I reckon that about its function there aren't any doubts. About how it was implemented however they do still remain. Either the spring is too long and doesn't allow more compression in order to properly cycle the refill and or (in conjunction) the grommet should be placed a little further down on the tube. Something has failed, but as you said, unless I get another pen (and it would have to have the same parts) it is impossible to compare and conclude anything else.

 

My pen as a date code "III" also made in France. And thanks for your contributions!

Edited January 1, 2013 by ScratchyNib

[ScratchyNib]

Finally, some closure to the thread, I guess.

I'll try my best to explain what I ended up finding.

Some time ago while fidgeting with the pen I was able to remove one more piece that until then had eluded. It sat inside the barrel and somehow I wasn't able to notice it previously. I don't remember exactly how it got out because I tried so much stuff but it was either when I was feeling the barrel's inside with the help of a paper clip or when I was trying the grommet posted above and removing the refill brought both parts out compressed together.

Now I reckon I can safely say that the grommet posted above wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. Indeed their function seems to be stopping the refill from knocking the barrel walls thus making the pen more silent while writing.

Judging from the piece I've taken out they also seem to go through some sort of thermal expansion/fit in order to allow the refill body to go through them and also to fit snugly in the barrel.

Mine was broken. Cause of that it went deeper on the barrel as the sides created by the crack overlapped. Afterwards I reinstalled it, carefully as to not get any overlap, and installed it where it seemed to fit snugly.

The pen is silent, and everything works great without that first grommet posted above. Judging by the appearances they're exactly the same part. One is "raw" and the other has been melted I guess.

I'll leave some photos to help visualize.

http://imageshack.us/a/img827/8224/fotos0003x.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img203/2861/dsc04825h.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img62/1973/dsc04827bf.jpg

 

Mystery solved!

Edited May 16, 2013 by ScratchyNib