Italic, Stub And Oblique Nibs

[sunrise]

Hello All!

 

I know what a stub nib is and I know what an oblique nib is. But what`s the deal with so-called italic nibs? Are they stub or oblique or both? And isn`t the term italic referring to a certain writing style? I`m a bit confused here.

Can someone shed a light on this, please?

 

Greetings, sunrise

[Nova42]

A stub nib is a rounder italic. Italic nibs will have sharper lines and crisper line variation.

[Pippin60]

Fountain Pen 101

[tinta]

For another good explanation, look up Richard Binder's site, for a three-part discussion of nib types (in particular the italics).

Very useful information.

[Silvermink]

A stub is a type of italic nib. People use three categories to talk about italics, in decreasing order of sharpness: crisp italics, cursive italics, and stub italics.

 

However, there's no standard for where the boundaries are between these italic subtypes.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The answer is line variation. It helps to use two toned shading ink when looking for line variation.

 

If you just want to use vivid monotone ink, don't waste any money on Shading ink.

 

Good paper makes good things happen with shading inks too.

 

I don't like modern Obliques...they are like dancing with cement overshoes.

They are for folks that hold their pens 'crooked'/canted.

There is nothing wrong with that many folks do now, did then, and always have perhaps back to the goose quill.

 

I don't find in modern the line variation that I get in vintage oblique with a tad of flex.

 

I like vintage German pre'66 Obliques that are semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex/'flexi'. They are fun. They do the Foxtrot and Tango.

 

Italic can be used in one form of calligraphy.

 

Read Richard.

[sunrise]

Thanks for your input. I have read about it on Richard`s site and now I know.

[jslallar]

Please refer to Richard Binder's site,

nobody can do a better job of once and for all removing all your doubts and answering all your questions (above and then some)

schematic pics +

[raging.dragon]

There are two sets of definitions for these terms.

 

Historically stubs and obliques were types of italic nib. The flat surface of a stub nib was perpendicular to the centre line of the nib. Oblique nibs had the flat surface cut at an angle to the center line. These italic nibs were intended to vary the angle at which the widest and finest lines occured while writing, and some calligraphy styles required oblique nibs at specific angles. Vintage stub or oblique nibs fountain pens nibs would generally have rounded edges to facilitate cursive writing, while dip pen stub or oblique nibs would generally have sharp edges to maximize line variation.

 

These historic definitions are still generally used when talking about dip pens or calligraphy.

 

Within the modern fountain pen community, stub, cursive italic and crisp italic nibs all have their contact surface perpendicular to the centre line, and refer to different degrees of line variation. A crisp italic meets the paper with a sharp edged rectangular contact area, these nibs are intended for calligraphy and are very difficult to use for cursive writing. The contact patch of a cursive italics is a rectangle with rounded corners or even an ellipse, this makes cursive writing much easier. A stub has less line variation and more rounded corners, it's contact patch will be elliptical. Thus the stub is less picky about the angle at which it meets the paper. Oblique nibs still have their contact area angled, but are intended for people who roll their pen one way or the other, and have little if any line variation.

[Saintpaulia]

There are two sets of definitions for these terms.

 

Historically stubs and obliques were types of italic nib. The flat surface of a stub nib was perpendicular to the centre line of the nib. Oblique nibs had the flat surface cut at an angle to the center line. These italic nibs were intended to vary the angle at which the widest and finest lines occured while writing, and some calligraphy styles required oblique nibs at specific angles. Vintage stub or oblique nibs fountain pens nibs would generally have rounded edges to facilitate cursive writing, while dip pen stub or oblique nibs would generally have sharp edges to maximize line variation.

 

These historic definitions are still generally used when talking about dip pens or calligraphy.

 

Within the modern fountain pen community, stub, cursive italic and crisp italic nibs all have their contact surface perpendicular to the centre line, and refer to different degrees of line variation. A crisp italic meets the paper with a sharp edged rectangular contact area, these nibs are intended for calligraphy and are very difficult to use for cursive writing. The contact patch of a cursive italics is a rectangle with rounded corners or even an ellipse, this makes cursive writing much easier. A stub has less line variation and more rounded corners, it's contact patch will be elliptical. Thus the stub is less picky about the angle at which it meets the paper. Oblique nibs still have their contact area angled, but are intended for people who roll their pen one way or the other, and have little if any line variation.

Yes, this is good info. However it does not really tell me what is going on with the Pelikan 1.5 mm. italic I just purchased, because I have yet to figure out what kind of italic it is. Anyone?

[Mickey]

Simply put, stubs, italic, and oblique pens are edged pens, that is, pens the contact patch of which is roughly rectangular.* A perfectly rectangular edge would be difficult to use, the corners digging into the paper unless the contact patch is kept perfectly soled on the page at all times. To make the pens more usable, the corners of the rectangle are relieved (rounded), stubs being the most rounded, crisp (or formal) italic nibs being the least, with cursive italic nibs being somewhere in between. The tradeoff is crispness of line vs ease of use. Oblique describes any orientation of edge other than at right angles or in line with the pen shaft.

 

There is no bright line distinction among stub, cursive italic, and crisp italic nibs. However, most writers will have difficulty executing push strokes with truly crisp or formal italic nibs, so pen lifts may be the most important determining factor. This means user skill and discipline should also be considered in describing the nib. A skilled penman may be able to writing cursively with a very crisp italic nib, where mere mortals will require more relief. One man's formal italic nib might be another man's stub. (I have not encountered many factory FP italic nibs which I would describe as especially crisp, but I've used fairly crisp nibs for most of the last 30 years.)

 

* This not necessarily true for all stubs, but it's true enough for the purpose of this discussion.

[raging.dragon]

There are two sets of definitions for these terms.

 

Historically stubs and obliques were types of italic nib. The flat surface of a stub nib was perpendicular to the centre line of the nib. Oblique nibs had the flat surface cut at an angle to the center line. These italic nibs were intended to vary the angle at which the widest and finest lines occured while writing, and some calligraphy styles required oblique nibs at specific angles. Vintage stub or oblique nibs fountain pens nibs would generally have rounded edges to facilitate cursive writing, while dip pen stub or oblique nibs would generally have sharp edges to maximize line variation.

 

These historic definitions are still generally used when talking about dip pens or calligraphy.

 

Within the modern fountain pen community, stub, cursive italic and crisp italic nibs all have their contact surface perpendicular to the centre line, and refer to different degrees of line variation. A crisp italic meets the paper with a sharp edged rectangular contact area, these nibs are intended for calligraphy and are very difficult to use for cursive writing. The contact patch of a cursive italics is a rectangle with rounded corners or even an ellipse, this makes cursive writing much easier. A stub has less line variation and more rounded corners, it's contact patch will be elliptical. Thus the stub is less picky about the angle at which it meets the paper. Oblique nibs still have their contact area angled, but are intended for people who roll their pen one way or the other, and have little if any line variation.

Yes, this is good info. However it does not really tell me what is going on with the Pelikan 1.5 mm. italic I just purchased, because I have yet to figure out what kind of italic it is. Anyone?

 

I'm not familiar with the Pelikan 1.5 nib, so I can't help there.

[Ghost Plane]

I have one and would call it cursive italic as it's crisper and slower to write with than the stubs in my collection, yet the corners are still rounded enough that one can write "normally" with it.

[Saintpaulia]

Some "one" can write normally with it. I cannot yet. I have been looking for some info, practical info on italics on-line, both written and YouTube but thus far not much.

[Mickey]

Some "one" can write normally with it. I cannot yet. I have been looking for some info, practical info on italics on-line, both written and YouTube but thus far not much.

 

If you're having problems with edged pens, one or more of the following will probably help:

 

1) Look for the topic 'tripod grip' in the penmanship forum. Learn it, use it, and remember a relaxed grip is usually a good grip. Your wrist and arm need to be more active, your fingers less.

 

2) Sole the edge of the pen on the page. Leave it soled except when you must lift the pen (between letters, words, line breaks, etc.). Pay attention to the position of the curled little finger and do not allow your hand to rotate or roll as you move across the page. Move your arm or the paper instead.

 

3) Go to Amazon and purchase one or more of the following: (none will break your piggy bank)

a. The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting: Cursive and Calligraphic by Fred Eager

b. Italic Calligraphy and Handwriting Exercises and Text by Lloyd J. Reynolds

c. Write Now: The Complete Program For Better Handwriting by Getty and Dubay

[Ghost Plane]

The key is to let the nib find its own way on the page. Put the nib down flat so that gravity does the work. Close your fingers around the pen and "sketch" your words using your wrist and arm.

 

Because italics are sensitive to positioning on the page, they are harder for people who "finger write" than for those of us who have a more hand/arm oriented script.

 

Patience and practice will reward you.

[Saintpaulia]

"Sole the edge of the pen on the page. Leave it soled...".

Huh? What is this verb?

[Saintpaulia]

The key is to let the nib find its own way on the page. Put the nib down flat so that gravity does the work. Close your fingers around the pen and "sketch" your words using your wrist and arm.

 

Because italics are sensitive to positioning on the page, they are harder for people who "finger write" than for those of us who have a more hand/arm oriented script.

 

Patience and practice will reward you.

 

Thanks for the info. I bet I do "finger write". I am not sure I could control my hand just using my wrist and arm. Besides, relearning how to write at my age is asking alot!

[Mickey]

"Sole the edge of the pen on the page. Leave it soled...".

Huh? What is this verb?

 

To place or rest the underside of something on a working surface, e.g., soling a golf club meaning resting the bottom of the club on the ground.

 

Soling an edged pen means putting the entire usable length of the edge on the page. For the pen to work correctly, this is the normal configuration, though some advanced techniques employ the corners of the nib.

 

It is also important (crucial, really) that the edge always points in the same direction. For italic, the edge typically lies along the 7:30 / 1:30 axis. That is, the pen barrel always points toward 10:30 (315 degrees, NE). Again, other styles and advanced techniques employ different orientations or may require active manipulation of edge orientation.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Mickey

[Bo Bo Olson]

Pure Italic calligraphy for me is a drawn letter.

 

I don't practice enough for it to be otherwise.

 

In I am drawing a letter, I need to hold the calligraphy pen, slightly canted, and before the big knuckle. The book I have shows that.

 

Cursive Italic requires no practice, but precise placement of the nib flat on the paper. One has to also find out at what altitude a nib needs to be held. My CI requires me to hold the nib a bit higher than I normally do, but still behind the big knuckle, to get the most out of it.

It took me an hour to get use to holding the pen a bit high.

 

That was me and that pen, another pen might be ground a bit lower.

 

My 1.5 Lamy nib is stubbish in it allows me to write cursive easily. It is not sharp and crisp. It how ever requires big script, because of the width of the nib. I'm suppose to use it for regular calligraphy.

 

I have an Osmiroid calligraphy set, that is sharp and crisp.

But as I say, Calligraphy needs practice.

It does show you how to form letters. Some six of the basic calligraphy strokes can be used in later more flexible nibs.

 

Certain things in life require practice, and the more one practices the better one is. Remember LA was not built in a day.

 

If you don't want to work at it, I would suggest first getting a stubbish nib, a fun nib.