Silver Dip Pen Holder And Naval Jelly?

[OakIris]

I have a silver dip pen holder that was probably made in the late 19th century, early 20th century, by Bailey, Banks & Biddle; it belonged in to someone in my father's family and somehow I ended up with it, had it for years before I figured out (recently) what it was. :embarrassed_smile: At some point in its long history a steel nib was left in it and rusted (presumably) and then broke off in the ferrule, leaving some bits of the nib "welded" to the ferrule so they can not be removed and a new nib can not be installed - there just isn't enough give to the ferrule/center piece to allow the insertion of another nib. I have been soaking it in penetrating oil for over a month seemingly without any result, but I thought it would be worth a try. I have a lengthy thread in the Writing Instruments section about this pen, should anyone care to wade through it.

 

Here are a couple of pictures that show (sort of) what I am talking about; the second photo shows the ferrule with crude arrows showing the broken nib bits:

 

 

I contacted a local silversmith about the problem and they suggested soaking it in naval jelly to remove the rusted bits. The silversmith did note that "it should be checked every day or two to be sure of the effects of the chemicals." Now, Naval Jelly is of course an acid, or the active ingredient is phosphoric acid. Is this safe to use on silver? The outer piece of the ferrule is stamped sterling silver, but I do not know what the center piece is made of - no rust on it but it MAY be silver plate....?

 

I am hoping someone here has had some experience with restoring/working with sterling silver pens. Also, if anyone here has better suggestions as to how to remove the nib bits so that I can finally use the pen holder, please let me know.

 

Holly

[FarmBoy]

I am inclined to say I would not soak this holder in Navel Jelly. While it will certainly attack the rust it may attack the other materials faster.

 

Have you tried soaking in penetrating oil while in an ultrasonic cleaner?

 

The actual nib holder should be soldered onto the actual stem and since it is already off you should be able to see the tail of the nob or what ever is there. You could try pushing the old point through.

 

You may want to consult with someone like vintagepens.com (David) he is an active collector of early holders.

[viclip]

An old motorhead's trick for removing rusted-on fasteners is to heat them to glowing red using oxy-actylene. As the heat-expanded parts cool they return to shape & "crack" the rust bond; particularly where dissimilar metals are involved. Of course you can't use oxy-acetylene on silver however I suspect that you could apply a fair amount of heat from some other source without harming it. After it cools the steel nib remnants might just be freed up. I have no idea as to what temp silver can be safely heated, that's something you could research.

 

As far as penetrating oil, the active ingredient historically has been kerosene. Try some straight kerosene; or try some straight WD-40. In my experience however when pieces are firmly rusted together, liquids are just unable to penetrate the solid mass, so don't hold your breath.

 

Another old motorhead's trick is to soak rusted parts in table vinegar for days or even weeks at a time. Vinegar is diluted acetic acid so the same question arises as to whether the silver will be harmed. But I would note that Parker used silver breather tubes in some of its pens & altho the tubes eventually corroded in the inky environment (usu. acidic) they nevertheless did resist the ink for quite some time.

 

You could always buy some small scrap pieces of junk sterling & immerse them in the acid of your choice just to observe.

[viclip]

Well now you've gotten me interested...according to the following Wikipedia article, silver doesn't react with sulphuric acid thus such acid is commonly used in the jewellery industry for removing contaminants from silver items:

 

H2SO4

 

If my former motorhead memory serves me correctly, common automotive battery acid is typically sulphuric acid.

 

I can't vouch for whether it's true that sulphuric acid won't harm sterling silver & continue to recommend testing with some scrap material; presumably if it is safe, there's some maximum allowable concentration.

 

I can however vouch for the fact that sulphuric acid will eat steel, having had to deal with many a corroded car battery tray.

[OakIris]

FarmBoy - David is actually one of the ones that responded to my thread in the Writing Instruments forum. He said the best thing would be to soak it in penetrating oil, then place it in an ultrasonic cleaner, and then alternate the treatment with some sort of acid - he never did say what acid to use but did say that it was not for use by amateurs, only to be used by professionals. I only had the penetrating oil so that is what I have used - don't have the cleaner or the acid. He knew exactly how to fix it, apparently had done so in the past with other pen holders, so I did ask him if he would be willing to try to fix the pen holder for me but he was not willing, has too many of his own projects to do. So, no, I have only been soaking it in the oil, I don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaning machine. And I guess I won't try the Naval Jelly either - don't want to disintegrate the whole thing! The ferrule is indeed supposed to be soldered to the holder but it was removable when I got the holder, the solder must have finally given way....The center piece is still soldered at its bottom part so there is no gap between the center piece and the ferrule, no way of pushing something through to push out the nib parts.

 

viclip - thank you for your suggestions as well. I don't think I will try the heat method - a puddle of "slag" would no doubt be the result. lol I also don't think I want to mess around with sulfuric acid.... Vinegar can be used to clean silver, but though it will remove the tarnish, I am not sure that it will do much for loosening up the steel that is "welded" to the silver. I have a feeling that your comment that other liquids, such as penetrating oil/WD40/kerosene, probably won't do much to loosen them up either, is most likely correct. Sigh.

 

Holly

[professionaldilettante]

FarmBoy - David is actually one of the ones that responded to my thread in the Writing Instruments forum. He said the best thing would be to soak it in penetrating oil, then place it in an ultrasonic cleaner, and then alternate the treatment with some sort of acid - he never did say what acid to use but did say that it was not for use by amateurs, only to be used by professionals. I only had the penetrating oil so that is what I have used - don't have the cleaner or the acid. He knew exactly how to fix it, apparently had done so in the past with other pen holders, so I did ask him if he would be willing to try to fix the pen holder for me but he was not willing, has too many of his own projects to do. So, no, I have only been soaking it in the oil, I don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaning machine. And I guess I won't try the Naval Jelly either - don't want to disintegrate the whole thing! The ferrule is indeed supposed to be soldered to the holder but it was removable when I got the holder, the solder must have finally given way....The center piece is still soldered at its bottom part so there is no gap between the center piece and the ferrule, no way of pushing something through to push out the nib parts.

 

viclip - thank you for your suggestions as well. I don't think I will try the heat method - a puddle of "slag" would no doubt be the result. lol I also don't think I want to mess around with sulfuric acid.... Vinegar can be used to clean silver, but though it will remove the tarnish, I am not sure that it will do much for loosening up the steel that is "welded" to the silver. I have a feeling that your comment that other liquids, such as penetrating oil/WD40/kerosene, probably won't do much to loosen them up either, is most likely correct. Sigh.

 

Holly

You can heat silver quite a bit before it turns to slag. You just need to find a charcoal block for jewelry, a small butane torch, like those used for creme brulee, and a dim room. Just watch it, carefully when heating, as the metal will glow to an orange from black before melting. I've done plenty of silverworking with a small butane torch (mainly soldering) but it should do the trick.

[OakIris]

You can heat silver quite a bit before it turns to slag. You just need to find a charcoal block for jewelry, a small butane torch, like those used for creme brulee, and a dim room. Just watch it, carefully when heating, as the metal will glow to an orange from black before melting. I've done plenty of silverworking with a small butane torch (mainly soldering) but it should do the trick.

 

 

Interesting! Thank you for that information. This might remove the solder that is holding the middle piece to the ferrule, too, which might also help with the broken nib removal. If I get brave enough to give it a try.....

 

Holly

[Ray-Vigo]

I'd stay away from Naval Jelly. It can leave a color tint on some finishes and makes a real mess a lot of the time.

 

I'd start with the penetrating oil and heat. Not all oils are equal for task. I prefer Kroil for this, but have made-do with Liquid Wrench. WD40 and kerosene are at the bottom of the list for that sort of task. I've had little luck with them. When something is really stuck I use a small butane torch and a liberal dose of Kroil or Liquid Wrench. I've freed frozen screws on firearms this way.

 

For de-rusting bulk metal, I have also used Oxalic Acid. It usually takes the form of deck wash/bleach crystals at the hardware store. I would advise against using it on silver, since it reacts explosively with certain silver compounds. Someone may mention it is all (or you may see people talking about it for corrosion removal on other sites), but I'd avoid it with that piece.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Ray-Vigo

[OakIris]

I'd stay away from Naval Jelly. It can leave a color tint on some finishes and makes a real mess a lot of the time.

 

I'd start with the penetrating oil and heat. Not all oils are equal for task. I prefer Kroil for this, but have made-do with Liquid Wrench. WD40 and kerosene are at the bottom of the list for that sort of task. I've had little luck with them. When something is really stuck I use a small butane torch and a liberal dose of Kroil or Liquid Wrench. I've freed frozen screws on firearms this way.

 

For de-rusting bulk metal, I have also used Oxalic Acid. It usually takes the form of deck wash/bleach crystals at the hardware store. I would advise against using it on silver, since it reacts explosively with certain silver compounds. Someone may mention it is all (or you may see people talking about it for corrosion removal on other sites), but I'd avoid it with that piece.

Thank you for your response, Ray-Vigo. Naval jelly has been crossed off my list; I do wonder why the local silversmith recommended it.... I have been using Marvel Lubricating Oil for my penetrating oil soak. Does this compare favorably to the Kroil product or do you believe that Kroil is better? (Providing you have had experience with both oils....)

 

As for heat, are you talking about using a butane/creme brulee torch such as professionaldilettante mentioned?

Are there any particular brands, or control specs, etc., recommended for such torches?

 

I will skip the Oxalic Acid - explosions are discouraged where I live.....

 

Holly

[Vintagepens]

Fair warning: if you heat silver anywhere near red heat, it will be destroyed if there is *any* soft solder on it -- and there surely is, since the ferrule was soft-soldered to the rest of the pen, and the individual elements of the ferrule are also soft-soldered together.

[OakIris]

Fair warning: if you heat silver anywhere near red heat, it will be destroyed if there is *any* soft solder on it -- and there surely is, since the ferrule was soft-soldered to the rest of the pen, and the individual elements of the ferrule are also soft-soldered together.

Another "fix" method that is not for the uninitiated then, I gather... Sigh. I seem to be running out of choices here.

 

Holly

[Ray-Vigo]

Fair warning: if you heat silver anywhere near red heat, it will be destroyed if there is *any* soft solder on it -- and there surely is, since the ferrule was soft-soldered to the rest of the pen, and the individual elements of the ferrule are also soft-soldered together.

Another "fix" method that is not for the uninitiated then, I gather... Sigh. I seem to be running out of choices here.

 

Holly

 

Depends on how much heat is applied. Heat and red hot differ, but the point is still valid that you want to control the application. If you want to avoid heat altogether, I'd try soaking the area in Kroil for a fairly long period (days to weeks). I'm not impressed with Marvel or Liquid Wrench for the job.

[viclip]

Why not create a "bridge" from which to suspend the pen's point end in water & bring it to a boil on the kitchen stove, such that the area in question will cook at 212 degrees F. for a while (don't let the pen touch the pot's bottom because that is in direct contact with the much hotter burner or flame). Do it repeatedly if need be. The idea is to "crack" the bond adhering the steel remnants to the sterling thru one or more cycles of expansion/contraction.

 

Silver can be boiled in water without any adverse reaction, but be careful to use a stainless steel pot since an aluminum pot could react via mineral salts in the water (some people boil silver with aluminum etc. as a tarnish-removing technique).

 

I'm unaware of any solder that will melt at boiling.

[Vintagepens]

David is actually one of the ones that responded to my thread in the Writing Instruments forum. . .

 

He knew exactly how to fix it, apparently had done so in the past with other pen holders, so I did ask him if he would be willing to try to fix the pen holder for me but he was not willing, has too many of his own projects to do.

 

Unfortunately, there is no "exactly how to fix it" in cases like these. It's a bit like cleaning a painting: you can describe some of the solvents and cleansers commonly used, and note their properties and risks; but in the end, one has to walk the tightrope between removing dirt and old varnish and removing glaze and paint -- and to do that successfully requires a lot of knowledge and experience.

[OakIris]

Fair warning: if you heat silver anywhere near red heat, it will be destroyed if there is *any* soft solder on it -- and there surely is, since the ferrule was soft-soldered to the rest of the pen, and the individual elements of the ferrule are also soft-soldered together.

Another "fix" method that is not for the uninitiated then, I gather... Sigh. I seem to be running out of choices here.

 

Holly

 

Depends on how much heat is applied. Heat and red hot differ, but the point is still valid that you want to control the application. If you want to avoid heat altogether, I'd try soaking the area in Kroil for a fairly long period (days to weeks). I'm not impressed with Marvel or Liquid Wrench for the job.

I understand about the heat; I have no experience with heating up silver so I don't think I want to take a torch to my antique silver. I will pick up some Kroil though!

 

Why not create a "bridge" from which to suspend the pen's point end in water & bring it to a boil on the kitchen stove, such that the area in question will cook at 212 degrees F. for a while (don't let the pen touch the pot's bottom because that is in direct contact with the much hotter burner or flame). Do it repeatedly if need be. The idea is to "crack" the bond adhering the steel remnants to the sterling thru one or more cycles of expansion/contraction.

 

Silver can be boiled in water without any adverse reaction, but be careful to use a stainless steel pot since an aluminum pot could react via mineral salts in the water (some people boil silver with aluminum etc. as a tarnish-removing technique).

 

I'm unaware of any solder that will melt at boiling.

Very interesting - thank you for this suggestion. I think that is a method I can try without damaging the ferrule!

 

David is actually one of the ones that responded to my thread in the Writing Instruments forum. . .

 

He knew exactly how to fix it, apparently had done so in the past with other pen holders, so I did ask him if he would be willing to try to fix the pen holder for me but he was not willing, has too many of his own projects to do.

 

Unfortunately, there is no "exactly how to fix it" in cases like these. It's a bit like cleaning a painting: you can describe some of the solvents and cleansers commonly used, and note their properties and risks; but in the end, one has to walk the tightrope between removing dirt and old varnish and removing glaze and paint -- and to do that successfully requires a lot of knowledge and experience.

lol Well, perhaps I was a bit too emphatic with my statement. You certainly seemed to have had experience with similar situations and indicated that you had had success with using the oil/ultrasonic cleaner/acid method so. to me, you appeared to know how to fix it! Anyway, that was just my interpretation of what you posted. Unfortunately I have no experience with any of this so am just trying to find a method that is least likely to "remove the glaze and the paint" along with the dirt, to use your analogy.

 

Holly

[njomd]

We have a little bottle of this stuff in our garage. It has never failed to loosen up stuck or rusted bolts, scresws, etc. I don't know if it's safe for silver or not.

You don't need much - he had a little bottle when we got married 22 years ago and has not managed to use it up!

 

Hope I didn't mess up inserting the link. :embarrassed_smile:

BreakFree

 

good luck!

[OakIris]

We have a little bottle of this stuff in our garage. It has never failed to loosen up stuck or rusted bolts, scresws, etc. I don't know if it's safe for silver or not.

You don't need much - he had a little bottle when we got married 22 years ago and has not managed to use it up!

 

Hope I didn't mess up inserting the link. :embarrassed_smile:

BreakFree

 

good luck!

Thank you for the link, njomd - it works just fine. I have ordered a can of the Kano Kroil penetrating oil that Ray-Vigo recommended and will give that a try first. If I have no luck with that, I will look into the Break Free to try to find out what Teflon and the "other specialized chemicals" it contains might do to silver.

 

Holly