What's The Point Of Oblique Nibs?

[ttakacs]

In the left-handed (slightly) over-writing position, the paper is turned about 15 degrees to the left. To get full-contact of the nib edge on the paper requires that the pen be angled such that the nib is the closest part of the pen to my body (that is, the pen is tilted away from me). The diagonals are thinnest on the 8-to-2 and 2-to-8 angle.

 

I tried turning the nib over and underwriting but turned the wrong way and wound up splattering ink all over the page when the paper grabbed the smaller tine. Will try not to do that again.

Edited April 2, 2012 by ttakacs

[JefferyS]

I find it much easier to use a left oblique 15^o cursive italic versus a non-oblique cursive italic. Being a right-handed person, the nib is tilted a bit more toward my eyes, so I can see it a bit easier.

[torstar]

I find it much easier to use a left oblique 15^o cursive italic versus a non-oblique cursive italic. Being a right-handed person, the nib is tilted a bit more toward my eyes, so I can see it a bit easier.

 

 

Oh great, I get to learn about another disadvantage to being a lefty.

[Mickey]

I find it much easier to use a left oblique 15^o cursive italic versus a non-oblique cursive italic. Being a right-handed person, the nib is tilted a bit more toward my eyes, so I can see it a bit easier.

 

 

Oh great, I get to learn about another disadvantage to being a lefty.

 

Then take up Spencerian and Copperplate where being a lefty can be a real advantage (provided you're an under-writer).

[Biber]

Then take up Spencerian and Copperplate where being a lefty can be a real advantage (provided you're an under-writer).

 

Really? An advantage over a right handed writer? I've often heard this claimed but never explained. I should think the potential for smudging what has been written would mitigate any advantage.

[bwidjaja]

I am glad this question is asked. But I am not sure it is giving any more clarity after reading this thread. :hmm1:

[Bo Bo Olson]

Buy and try....if you don't like it you can sell if for @ what you paid for it.

 

Some people can't learn, others have no problem at all. I never had a problem.

There is no way I'm going to sell any of my pre'66 German obliques.

[Beagle]

The answer for left handers is simplicity itself: Simply write backwards.

[Mickey]

I am glad this question is asked. But I am not sure it is giving any more clarity after reading this thread. :hmm1:

 

Essentially, there are two schools of thought.

 

One group, (to which I belong) believes that oblique refers to the pad orientation of an edged pen (of which italics are only one variety) and that it relates directly to the manner (orientation of thickest strokes) of the line such pens put down on the page. This definition of oblique has been consistent among penman for at least a century (probably much, much longer), though some of the nomenclature, particularly the meaning of R-oblique (right or regular) has not been consistent.

 

The other group ascribes some benefit to obliques which fails the reality test offered by the original poster.

 

Yes, oblique nibs must be rotated to sole the nib, but that rotation is not the purpose of the nib. Here lies the source of the confusion. Lacking an understanding of the nib's true purpose, people have inferred a meaning to its appearance and construction which has little or nothing to do with its primary function. They asked the wrong first question: "why do you rotate the pen?, rather than "what is this nib supposed to do?" If you look at the marking pattern of a well made oblique nib, the correct answer is obvious.

 

It is possible to create an oblique nib (in the sense used by group one) which does not appear oblique when viewed from above and which does not require the pen barrel be rotated, but it would be much more complicated (and thus more expensive) to grind. So, oblique nibs look as they do because it is the most sensible way to effect their function. There are also many modification which can be made to nibs specifically to accommodate writer idiosyncrasies (included handedness), and, while it is just barely possible that oblique nibs may better suit some writers' hands than conventional nibs, that is not the oblique's primary purpose.

 

I hope that helps.

[torstar]

I am glad this question is asked. But I am not sure it is giving any more clarity after reading this thread. :hmm1:

 

 

Confusion generated by a cabal of lefties theorizing on a topic?

 

Perish the thought...

 

 

[JefferyS]

Buy and try....if you don't like it you can sell if for @ what you paid for it.

 

Some people can't learn, others have no problem at all. I never had a problem.

There is no way I'm going to sell any of my pre'66 German obliques.

 

+1

 

I was apprehensive when I ordered my first oblique. Within 5 minutes, it just clicked for me. For me, the big challenge is using a crisp italic. It sounds like fingernails on a blackboard.

 

 

 

[beak]

Having been round this loop three or four times by now, and having tried to pay attention to complex threads on nib geometry, I've had to leave it with the conclusion that, being a right-hander with a bog-standard grip and a 'normal' cursive hand sloping slightly to the right, I have no need for anything oblique. I have picked them up occasionally, and tried to write with them (usually mild left-foot obliques) but found that they were just angled all wrong for me, and had to be contorted in my hand in order to get the nib to sit correctly on the page.

 

I would love to see an oblique user post images of their writing both with an oblique nib and with an ordinary nib, not only to see the difference in effect but to hear about their grip or comfort or any other factor of use not obvious from viewing the two scripts.

 

I think for many of us, taking a normal nib, seating it in the obvious method on the page, and just writing with it, is all we'll ever need, and such can safely forget they ever even heard the word oblique! Does anyone propose that they offer anything at all to the 'normal' writer such as myself?

[JefferyS]

@Beak,

 

I think I'm not comfortable with keeping a plain italic nib at 45^o, but it feels a bit more natural with an oblique nib. A standing italic feels more like I have to "push" it to the left.

 

I would do the comparison you suggest if I had an italic (non-oblique) that I felt was worth a darn. At 45 degrees, they are uncomfortable to me.

 

Maybe I'm like William F. Buckley. He always listed to one side. And being a sailor (not Navy, but a 21-foot sailboat), I'm only comfortable listing to one side.

[beak]

........... I'm only comfortable listing to one side.

I guess that reinforces the idea that obliques are (among other things - but what things?) intended to cope with non-standard (but none the less valid alternative) grips - those that seem natural to some. Just not to me.

 

Interesting that you are intending to keep the nib at 45 degrees - the cut angle of the nib simply helping you to do so. This is, I think, the default and basic understanding of the need for oblique nibs. All the rest - for instance the assertion that obliques offer the ability to change the orientation of thicks and thins from 45 degrees) remains unconvincing to me, for now; why should one wish to change the orientation of the ink-line variation as it appears in the script.

 

Changing this orientation with reference to the long axis of the pen I can understand; compensation for a non-standard grip, but changing its appearance in the script I don't get, because, for one thing, it would make linking strokes in cursive thicker than they need be.

[JefferyS]

The "for people who tend to rotate their pens" explanation rings true to me...for pencils and ballpoints. Not rotating a pencil meant creating a flat, wide point, and not rotating an early ballpoint pen meant getting a glob of ink that built up on one edge. But I've never rotated a mechanical pencil, technical pen, or fountain pen. For me, it's more like turning left on a bicycle without listing to left. My head is in the middle, my writing hand is on my right, so tipping to the left feels right.

[Mickey]

Beak,

 

I hold all my pens exactly the same, oblique, italic, nominally round, dip, etc. With edged pens (e.g,, italic and obliques), I begin with a loose grip, allow the edge to move (the barrel or grip rotates) until the edge fully contact the page, then I firm up my grip slightly, and start writing. That's it. No biggy. Obliques do feel a little different than italics, but that is only because the edge has been relocated a few degrees, so the direction of greatest drag is different, but with a light hand and smooth the paper, the difference is negligible.

[Mickey]

Withdrawn

Edited April 3, 2012 by Mickey

[Mickey]

........... I'm only comfortable listing to one side.

I guess that reinforces the idea that obliques are (among other things - but what things?) intended to cope with non-standard (but none the less valid alternative) grips - those that seem natural to some. Just not to me.

 

Interesting that you are intending to keep the nib at 45 degrees - the cut angle of the nib simply helping you to do so.

 

Here's where you're confusing yourself. The pen (barrel) continues to point in the same direction with an oblique as it would normally. It is the effective direction of the nib which is changed. Put another way, if you normally place your paper, arm, and pen on the table so that the edge points 45 degrees above horizontal with an italic nib, using a 15 degree L-oblique will make the edge point 60 degrees above horizontal. This allows for thinner joins, joins at an angle similar to what is taught in most modern cursive hands.

 

The join angle in the cursive hands most of us learned in school is closer to 60 degrees than 45. Writing these hands with an italic nib, results in thickish joins, closed in letters, and not very much apparent line variation. However, change nibs to a 15 degree L-oblique and matters change considerably. The natural join angle for this nib is steeper, in line with the joins you learned in school, so automatically you get many of the benefits of learning an italic cursive hand, without actually having to learn one: thin joins and plenty of easy to see line width variation.

[Mickey]

 

I would love to see an oblique user post images of their writing both with an oblique nib and with an ordinary nib, not only to see the difference in effect but to hear about their grip or comfort or any other factor of use not obvious from viewing the two scripts.

 

 

http://www.nibs.com/AuroraNibs.htm

 

Here are short examples from all the Aurora nibs. The differences are often subtle, but easily seen at sufficient enlargement. (Probably easiest to see when comparing M, OM, and OMR or B, OB, and OBR examples. Observe where the lines are heaviest and where they are thinnest.)

[bunnybaby]

It seems to me that oblique broad nib (particularly the italic ones) may be suited for Arabic calligraphy. I purchased one Pilot calligraphy pen (felt-tip) and the tip is fashioned as oblique broad italic.