What Ink For Organic Solvents?

[marvinreader]

First off, OChem is the best!! I loved that class and actually only really spilled lots of water....I mean lots of water...and I guess I did cause that one explosion second semester....tons of fun though..

 

I'd use Bulletproof black ink from Noodler's....will fit most of you requirements!!

[Possum Hill]

...

 

...and I guess I did cause that one explosion second semester....

 

...

I hope no pens were damaged.

[rtell]

I am an immunologist, who works with fish and at the bench, I get all sorts of water and chemicals/solvents/etc on my lab notebooks. The inks that have been up to the challenge for me:

 

All Noodler's - Heart of Darkness, Violet Vote, Kung Te-Cheng, Whaleman's Sepia, Galileo Manuscript Brown.

All are bulletproof. So, I suspect that any of the Noodler's bullet proof would be good choices.

 

I use them in the small Noodler's Piston Rollerball Pens and in a Pentel Tradio.

 

 

First off, OChem is the best!! I loved that class and actually only really spilled lots of water....I mean lots of water...and I guess I did cause that one explosion second semester....tons of fun though..

 

I'd use Bulletproof black ink from Noodler's....will fit most of you requirements!!

[dcwaites]

Yeah, we used to use hardbound ledger type books (journals) with sewn-in, numbered pages. The one person in the department who was suspected of fabricating work was found to have no journals whatsoever (not even 3-ring binder).

 

Good point, and oh dear.

 

What about those "inkless pens"? I know it's a variation on silverpoint using an iron-based alloy (they claimed a form of stainless steel in one article), but it's supposed to be pretty darn permanent.

 

I suppose I'll probably run down the Montblanc ink as the pen's on its last drops, and then clean it out for something else, and I'll start up a cheapie with Noodler's based on folks' advice. I'm still tempted to try some Pen & Ink Sketch, which seems to be a waterproof carbon-based ink, and resisted all of the casual-around-the-home solvents I threw at it including carpet cleaner and chlorine-bearing mildew remover. I stopped before subjecting it to straight-up pool chlorine and muriatic acid, but I was quite impressed with the stuff given its price and availability.

 

Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid will leave the pigment and bulletproof inks alone, but it may remove the paper...

Anything stronger (Tucker's reagent, Aqua Regia, etc) and you will be picking the letters out with forceps and re-arranging them on new paper. Actually I suspect that Tucker's would destroy even the Warden's inks.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Hmm Tucker's reagent. HCl + HNO₃ + HF. Sounds like at least Blish's description of Horta spit. Also sounds like something you have to keep in bottles made of something other than glass.

 

Hmm. Used as an etchant. No doubt. I think if I need an etchant, I'll stick with FeCl₃. Not nearly as nasty.

Edited August 29, 2011 by hbquikcomjamesl

[dcwaites]

Hmm Tucker's reagent. HCl + HNO₃ + HF. Sounds like at least Blish's description of Horta spit. Also sounds like something you have to keep in bottles made of something other than glass.

 

Hmm. Used as an etchant. No doubt. I think if I need an etchant, I'll stick with FeCl₃. Not nearly as nasty.

 

Yes, mainly used to etch aluminium for metallurgical examination of the crystal structure. As soon as raw aluminium hits air, the surface oxidises to aluminium oxide, also known as corundum or sapphire. From Wikipedia --

"Metallic aluminum is very reactive with atmospheric oxygen, and a thin passivation layer of alumina (4 nm thickness) forms in about 100 picoseconds on any exposed aluminium surface. This layer protects the metal from further oxidation."

It is also incredibly stable chemically, hence the need for Tucker's reagent.

 

I have made Tucker's. I have used it. I have also splashed a tiny (pico-droplet) on my arm. It is nasty, up there with Predator blood.

[devorenm]

The Thought experiment in finding the most resistant ink is an interesting one - but the truth of the matter is for undergrad organic chemistry it doesn't really matter that much.

 

The reason you have to use a bound notebook and pen is that it prevents you from "fudging" things in your notebook. In a lab where real work is being done there are patent and authentication concerns but O-chem is mostly extractions and synthesizing things like aspirin - the prof just doesn't want you to cheat.

 

As for solvents - the biggest threat is water. Any work with volatile organic solvents will occur under a hood where your notebook won't be an issue. Any kind of water resistant ink is fine.

 

I know you said to the contrary but fountain pen friendliness of the notebook IS probably your biggest concern. In most Ochem labs there is a ton (several full pages) of background information, procedures, mechanisms, side reactions, yield estimates that have to be completed before lab - the last thing you want is a notebook that won't take ink.

[Chrontius]

The Thought experiment in finding the most resistant ink is an interesting one - but the truth of the matter is for undergrad organic chemistry it doesn't really matter that much.

 

The reason you have to use a bound notebook and pen is that it prevents you from "fudging" things in your notebook. In a lab where real work is being done there are patent and authentication concerns but O-chem is mostly extractions and synthesizing things like aspirin - the prof just doesn't want you to cheat.

 

As for solvents - the biggest threat is water. Any work with volatile organic solvents will occur under a hood where your notebook won't be an issue. Any kind of water resistant ink is fine.

 

I know you said to the contrary but fountain pen friendliness of the notebook IS probably your biggest concern. In most Ochem labs there is a ton (several full pages) of background information, procedures, mechanisms, side reactions, yield estimates that have to be completed before lab - the last thing you want is a notebook that won't take ink.

 

Notebook is a Red & Black A5 size. It'll take ink.

 

I'm also wondering about the potential for gloved hands to transfer solvents to my plastic pen. I don't want to sacrifice a pen I like, but stainless, titanium, epoxy resin, and G10 pens are scarce and expensive. I'm leaning toward the Schrade Tactical fountain pen (anodized aluminum) as a good second choice at $25 shipped on Amazon.

[Angeldust]

Speaking as a research chemist, ballpoint is (loosly) required here because of the need of carbon copying through the lab book page- as such life is made easier with a ballpoint, despite the lack of chemical resistance.

 

If you're in teaching labs then any bulletproof noodlers will be more than sufficient.

 

As would pigment ink...

[raging.dragon]

In this type of environment, I would use a pigmented ink using carbon particles such as Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor Kiwa Guro or alternatively an ink containing cellulose reactive dyes, for example one of Noodler's Bulletproof inks. Iron gall inks might be less suitable since organic acids such as oxalic acid and citric acid, both likely to be present in any organic chemistry lab, can remove them.

 

That'd be my advice. I'd probably use Noodler's Black as it's bulletproof (i.e. has excellent water, solvent and chemical resistance) cheap and performs well on cheap paper.

 

Anything stronger (Tucker's reagent, Aqua Regia, etc) and you will be picking the letters out with forceps and re-arranging them on new paper. Actually I suspect that Tucker's would destroy even the Warden's inks.

 

So would a simple bunsen burner!

 

Hmm Tucker's reagent. HCl + HNO₃ + HF. Sounds like at least Blish's description of Horta spit. Also sounds like something you have to keep in bottles made of something other than glass.

 

Hmm. Used as an etchant. No doubt. I think if I need an etchant, I'll stick with FeCl₃. Not nearly as nasty.

 

Yes, mainly used to etch aluminium for metallurgical examination of the crystal structure. As soon as raw aluminium hits air, the surface oxidises to aluminium oxide, also known as corundum or sapphire. From Wikipedia --

"Metallic aluminum is very reactive with atmospheric oxygen, and a thin passivation layer of alumina (4 nm thickness) forms in about 100 picoseconds on any exposed aluminium surface. This layer protects the metal from further oxidation."

It is also incredibly stable chemically, hence the need for Tucker's reagent.

 

I have made Tucker's. I have used it. I have also splashed a tiny (pico-droplet) on my arm. It is nasty, up there with Predator blood.

 

Ouch. In addition to acid burns, HF is a neurotoxin that is known to induce severe pain. Nasty, nasty, stuff.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#Safety

[Chrontius]

In this type of environment, I would use a pigmented ink using carbon particles such as Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor Kiwa Guro or alternatively an ink containing cellulose reactive dyes, for example one of Noodler's Bulletproof inks. Iron gall inks might be less suitable since organic acids such as oxalic acid and citric acid, both likely to be present in any organic chemistry lab, can remove them.

 

That'd be my advice. I'd probably use Noodler's Black as it's bulletproof (i.e. has excellent water, solvent and chemical resistance) cheap and performs well on cheap paper.

 

Anything stronger (Tucker's reagent, Aqua Regia, etc) and you will be picking the letters out with forceps and re-arranging them on new paper. Actually I suspect that Tucker's would destroy even the Warden's inks.

 

So would a simple bunsen burner!

 

Hmm Tucker's reagent. HCl + HNO₃ + HF. Sounds like at least Blish's description of Horta spit. Also sounds like something you have to keep in bottles made of something other than glass.

 

Hmm. Used as an etchant. No doubt. I think if I need an etchant, I'll stick with FeCl₃. Not nearly as nasty.

 

Yes, mainly used to etch aluminium for metallurgical examination of the crystal structure. As soon as raw aluminium hits air, the surface oxidises to aluminium oxide, also known as corundum or sapphire. From Wikipedia --

"Metallic aluminum is very reactive with atmospheric oxygen, and a thin passivation layer of alumina (4 nm thickness) forms in about 100 picoseconds on any exposed aluminium surface. This layer protects the metal from further oxidation."

It is also incredibly stable chemically, hence the need for Tucker's reagent.

 

I have made Tucker's. I have used it. I have also splashed a tiny (pico-droplet) on my arm. It is nasty, up there with Predator blood.

 

Ouch. In addition to acid burns, HF is a neurotoxin that is known to induce severe pain. Nasty, nasty, stuff.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#Safety

It also slips through skin and tissue (as well as most gloves!) - it's a small molecule, and a fairly weak acid - without symptoms, but it's certainly a strong enough acid to react with the calcium in your bones and melt 'em. Pleasant dreams!

 

My pen of choice is a well-used Varsity loaded with a just-refreshed fill of Noodler's Legal Lapis (the most pH neutral of the already-pretty-neutral Bulletproof series), and a Fischer AG-7 as a backup. None of tomorrow's solvents attack brass or chrome, and anything that is neither is a consumable (part of the cartridge). A jumbo box of nitrile gloves will come along for good measure, and I'll probably burn through them at an eye-watering rate (though if my eyes are watering, that probably means the fume hood is broken and we need to evacuate the room!).

 

The good news is no Tucker's reagent or Aqua Regia before noon, at least.

[ssbbg]

 

 

I'm also wondering about the potential for gloved hands to transfer solvents to my plastic pen. I don't want to sacrifice a pen I like, but stainless, titanium, epoxy resin, and G10 pens are scarce and expensive. I'm leaning toward the Schrade Tactical fountain pen (anodized aluminum) as a good second choice at $25 shipped on Amazon.

 

To answer your transfer question- Short answer, you are more likely to spill directly on your pen than transfer from your gloves. Most organic solvents evaporate very quickly.

 

Long answer- and please do read because there is safety info-

 

If you have solvent on your gloves (other than water) you need to change them immediately. Most gloves used in lab (nitrile and latex) are resistant to (organic) solvents for a short time (sometimes minutes, or less, especially for chlorinated solvents like chloroform or dichloromethane (DCM)). If you get a splash, you (usually) have time to take off your gloves before it soaks through. I usually wash my hands anyway, just to be sure. Even if you don't feel the solvent (some organic solvents make your skin feel tingly or burning for some time - like chloroform- though you do get desensitized with enough exposure), the solvent may either have leaked through with out you noticing OR degraded the glove material enough that the next solvent splash will go through.

 

This is my pet peeve. My lab-mates use ONE pair of gloves all day, taking them on and off. They do organic synthesis, and we use nitrile exam gloves. Me, I change gloves left and right.

 

I use platinum preppies in lab mostly. They have a plastic body. I have wiped them down with ethanol and they have been exposed to solvent vapors, and they are fine. I've worked with acids and bases using them (6 N HCl and KOH). If they aren't fine, and degrade with time, then who cares? I lost a 5 dollar pen. I also use them as an eyedropper so I have plenty of ink to get through the week. Similarly, if I drop the pen or a coworker wanders of with it I don't care.

 

Louise

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Re: gloves, I'm reminded of a piece on lab safety in a recent issue of Popular Science, pointing out that despite the often extreme chemical, mechanical, biological, radiological, and other hazards found in industrial and research labs, most crippling and fatal lab accidents happen in school labs.

 

Specific to gloves, it mentioned one case in which a woman was working, in some University lab, with an organic mercury compound, and who failed to notice that she'd spilled it on her gloved hand. Until she dropped dead a few minutes later. Hmm. Found the article online, and it seems I misread one word: she died ten months later, not ten minutes later. And given that she was a professor, she probably should have known better.

 

"Safety is of first importance in the performance of duty."

-- The Standard Code of Operating Rules, Association of American Railroads.

Edited August 31, 2011 by hbquikcomjamesl

[JakobS]

The Thought experiment in finding the most resistant ink is an interesting one - but the truth of the matter is for undergrad organic chemistry it doesn't really matter that much.The reason you have to use a bound notebook and pen is that it prevents you from "fudging" things in your notebook. In a lab where real work is being done there are patent and authentication concerns but O-chem is mostly extractions and synthesizing things like aspirin - the prof just doesn't want you to cheat.As for solvents - the biggest threat is water. Any work with volatile organic solvents will occur under a hood where your notebook won't be an issue. Any kind of water resistant ink is fine.I know you said to the contrary but fountain pen friendliness of the notebook IS probably your biggest concern. In most Ochem labs there is a ton (several full pages) of background information, procedures, mechanisms, side reactions, yield estimates that have to be completed before lab - the last thing you want is a notebook that won't take ink.

 

I agree with this,

 

And this:

 

I'm also wondering about the potential for gloved hands to transfer solvents to my plastic pen. I don't want to sacrifice a pen I like, but stainless, titanium, epoxy resin, and G10 pens are scarce and expensive. I'm leaning toward the Schrade Tactical fountain pen (anodized aluminum) as a good second choice at $25 shipped on Amazon.

To answer your transfer question- Short answer, you are more likely to spill directly on your pen than transfer from your gloves. Most organic solvents evaporate very quickly.Long answer- and please do read because there is safety info-If you have solvent on your gloves (other than water) you need to change them immediately. Most gloves used in lab (nitrile and latex) are resistant to (organic) solvents for a short time (sometimes minutes, or less, especially for chlorinated solvents like chloroform or dichloromethane (DCM)). If you get a splash, you (usually) have time to take off your gloves before it soaks through. I usually wash my hands anyway, just to be sure. Even if you don't feel the solvent (some organic solvents make your skin feel tingly or burning for some time - like chloroform- though you do get desensitized with enough exposure), the solvent may either have leaked through with out you noticing OR degraded the glove material enough that the next solvent splash will go through. This is my pet peeve. My lab-mates use ONE pair of gloves all day, taking them on and off. They do organic synthesis, and we use nitrile exam gloves. Me, I change gloves left and right. I use platinum preppies in lab mostly. They have a plastic body. I have wiped them down with ethanol and they have been exposed to solvent vapors, and they are fine. I've worked with acids and bases using them (6 N HCl and KOH). If they aren't fine, and degrade with time, then who cares? I lost a 5 dollar pen. I also use them as an eyedropper so I have plenty of ink to get through the week. Similarly, if I drop the pen or a coworker wanders of with it I don't care.Louise

 

Though this was never made mention of when I took organic chem, the type of glove and chemical used will determine how long the glove can be used, in most cases nitrile gloves can be used for a variety of chemicals, but not all, and latex is generally not recommended at all for lab work. Even if the chemicals being used with nitrile gloves aren't going to affect the glove for a long period of time, it is always a good idea to come to your notebook with dry hands, you never should feel rushed when it comes to an experiment, nothing is so quick reacting that you need to feel so.

 

Get a solid waterproof ink, and follow good lab technique and you will be fine.

[wallylynn]

Even if you don't feel the solvent (some organic solvents make your skin feel tingly or burning for some time - like chloroform- though you do get desensitized with enough exposure), the solvent may either have leaked through with out you noticing OR degraded the glove material enough that the next solvent splash will go through.

 

 

 

Specific to gloves, it mentioned one case in which a woman was working, in some University lab, with an organic mercury compound, and who failed to notice that she'd spilled it on her gloved hand. Until she dropped dead a few minutes later.

Eek! That explains a lot. Way, way back in school, late in the day, I noticed a small blotch on the back of my hand. Kinda dark tan, somewhat tough and dry like a callus. It looked like what I imagine a minor acid burn would look like. I didn't know what to make of it since I didn't recall spilling any and I also had my gloves on during lab.

[Blizzard42]

I'm a QC lab technician in a pharma lab where we analyse high-grade very well known active pharmaceutical ingredients I can't mention because of my non-disclosure obligation. We have high GMP (Good Manufacturing Practice) standards, well some of the highest out there, and one of them is to use ballpoints which are document-quality because they state it's impossible to accurately copy a sheet of paper which was written on with a ball point (mainly because of the spots with a lot of ink where you start to write, if you look closely to a ballpoint line, it actually has some very weird habits, that can't be copied well) and also only with blue ballpoints, since they are even harder to copy. We have a lot of writing things going on on a day.. filling out documentation templates with a lot of info (even though it's the same on each analysis, we have to write specific things down to acknowledge we know what we're doing). I wouldn't even think of using one of my pens during work, because the active pharmaceutical ingredient I work with the most contaminates everything, and I don't want to risk my health, nor do I want to risk harming my pens with the decontamination solution. I think you're pretty lucky to have such "loose" standards, as you are allowed to use a fountain pen (that has an ink in it, which is not validated! imagine that in my lab...). But I don't think you should be too worried about the permanancy to organic solvents. You just have to be careful not to spill anything on the paper. That's not hard in my opinion. It only happened to me once where I have spilled something on a paper because I had a paper lying on the fume cupboard at my very beginning and I forgot to close the valve on the separation funnel while shaking it. But after all, it was my fault. The paper wasn't supposed to lay there, normally in a lab you have enough space to put a paper somewhere safe without being surrounded by solvents. The only thing that gets contact with the writing sometimes are the stickers we're using to label the expiry date etc. (sometimes also on selfmade solutions the date, name and stuff), when the bottles drip or something like that, but I've made pretty good experiences with ballpoints (well, duh... can't use anything else anyways!). Water and ethanol are no problem, acetone, methanol and chloroform and THF are a little bit more of a problem, the ink gets smeared a bit but you can still read it no problem. If you don't have to write on a lot of labels I would suggest you not to bother with all the requirements of the withstanding to organic solvents to the ink. It's still the best to be careful (we have to be anyways, since everything's contaminated we really have to be careful with stuff that gets touched without gloves, like documentation papers) and to work clean. Then you won't have any problem at all!

Edited August 31, 2011 by Blizzard42

[raging.dragon]

[...] you never should feel rushed when it comes to an experiment, nothing is so quick reacting that you need to feel so.

 

And if the reaction is that fast, you should be using automated measuring equipment and a computer to automatically record the data at predefined intervals.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

And if the reaction is that fast, you should be using automated measuring equipment and a computer to automatically record the data at predefined intervals.

That takes me back to a physics lab, back at Long Beach State, half a lifetime ago. It was on ballistics, rolling balls down chutes, using carbon paper to mark their impact points, and catching them on the first bounce. Threw my back out, chasing after the little buggers. As soon as I collected my data and had the lab assistant sign off, I was staggering to the Health Center, where they put me on muscle relaxants and strong pain pills for several days.

[ssbbg]

Specific to gloves, it mentioned one case in which a woman was working, in some University lab, with an organic mercury compound, and who failed to notice that she'd spilled it on her gloved hand. Until she dropped dead a few minutes later. Hmm. Found the article online, and it seems I misread one word: she died ten months later, not ten minutes later. And given that she was a professor, she probably should have known better.

 

"Safety is of first importance in the performance of duty."

-- The Standard Code of Operating Rules, Association of American Railroads.

 

 

That statement "given she was a prof and probably should have known better" is probably not correct. I think she didn't know better, that is, she knew that dimethyl mercury was toxic, but I don't think she or anyone realized that it penetrated nitrile gloves that quickly, and in fact the fast penetration through the glove for that type of molecule was unexpected. She was following appropriate safety procedures (at the time), and the procedures and regulations were changed after her death.

More information about this incident can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn

 

 

But, no one is going to die in organic chemistry lab. Still, the point is that a glove has different resistance to different chemicals. Nitrile gloves are pretty good and probably what most organic labs use. But change them anyway if you spill something on them, and tell you TA/Prof if you are concerned.

 

And use a cheap pen in lab so you don't have to worry about it.

 

Louise

[JefferyS]

I'll take an organic chemistry lab over a high school woodworking lab any day. Lathes and table saws can be killer. And mechanics seem to think that gasoline is a universal solvent for cleaning everything.

 

Our General Chemistry labs are using micro scale techniques, with much less chemical than 20 years ago. Forty years ago, we used to clean our glassware with benzene, and spilled mercury was simply swept away. I got toluene and xylene all over my fingers on a daily basis while preparing histological sections. I'm surprised I'm still living.