Tiers

[dasmart]

so i tried the search function with "tiers" n i got a whole wide array of articles that iddn't quite explain to me what this conept is.

 

so i've seen on some fountain pen fan/business sites by other peole they mention tiers. Like particular brands are of a general lower quality?

 

what is classified as tier 1 2 or 3? and how is it classified? i presume quality is the biggtest factor n this isn't a functino of price?

 

i mean like i've seen a lot of not so main stream brands of vintage fountain pens that have nice celluloids, but are far cheaper like under 20$. Are these worth while in buying? or are they prone to breaking? i guess i'm wondering is a "3rd tier" pen actually bad? or is it just not "as good"

[Yuki Onitsura]

I think the whole tiers thing is largely arbitrary. Seems to generally work on price more than anything else which is why cheap Chinese pens are typically regarded as lower tier even though they may write just as well as their pricier brand name cousins (sometimes ever better!).

 

Yuki

[dasmart]

oh okays, yeah i've had a very similar exp with that concept. I find that though price generally includes quality, it def doesn't guarantee it. have you had any exp with good vintage fountain pens that are "low tiered"? as for chinese, i've only had the chance to try a jinhao, n one of those really cheapy 2$ ones lols

[Yuki Onitsura]

Can't say I'm much of a vintage pen person. I have a red Esterbrook SJ which is now up to its third nib because I can't seem to make up my mind what I want to use it for and a Pilot Myu 701. As far as vintage pens go, I've no idea where these two fit in tier-wise but I suspect low tier vintage pens are hard to come by because most of them will have either been vapourised or disappeared to the place where all the stray socks go.

 

Yuki

[dasmart]

lols icic, yeah never thought about that. i suppose if they were too junk, they'd have not lasted.

 

i just recently started getting into esterbrooks, simple but nice. definitely economically efficient to me. thanks for the in put =3

[penmanila]

the "tier" concept has been largely applied to US vintage pens, as a general guide (emphasis on general) to the quality and desirability of pens, going by their makers. (of course, this can also be expanded to other brands--UK, german, japanese, etc.)

 

among american vintage pens, in the first tier would be the traditional big names--parker, sheaffer, waterman, wahl-eversharp, plus somewhat less popular but also topnotch makers as conklin, chilton, lebeouf, etc.

 

in the second tier would be other brands, also reliable and well-made (and some also very collectible today, like esterbrook), but initially aimed at a larger market, selling for lower prices; some were sub-brands of the first-tier makers: esterbrook, gold bond, eclipse, diamond medal, wasp, moore (maybe first-tier?), etc.

 

in the third tier was everything else--wearever (although it made some very nice pens, too), venus, arnold, etc. etc. typically these pens had gold-plated, steel, or "durium" nibs, often scratchy, and the plastics were appreciably thinner and lighter than the solidly-built first-tiers.

 

i could be off here and there in this general estimation, but that's pretty much the tier system as i apply it to my own collection. as far as modern pens go, that's another ballgame.

[corniche]

Greetings dasmart,

 

I'm from the "old school" and use the terms lower and upper echelon. However, I would assume that Tier 1 would indicate a "entry level" pen and so on.

 

In regards to vintage pens; I believe an Esterbrook Model J or SJ, (slightly slimmer than the J), would be an excellent choice for a Tier 1 vintage pen. However, things are changing; Esterbrooks are "arriving" and their prices are shooting up proportionately. For a pen that cost around a $1 when it was new, their quality is excellent; however, when compared to... say a Parker 51, (which was an upper echelon pen costing around $15 when new), the Esterbrook's "bargain basement" lineage begins to show through.

 

That said, an Esterbrook would be an excellent choice in an (still) affordable vintage pen, (a professionally restored specimen will set you back around $40). The ultimate vintage pen, IMHO, is the 51 Aerometric in the nicest condition you can afford. Farmersmums sells beautifully restored specimens for around $85 or so. (The price might have gone up- this was last year).

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[corniche]

the "tier" concept has been largely applied to US vintage pens, as a general guide (emphasis on general) to the quality and desirability of pens, going by their makers. (of course, this can also be expanded to other brands--UK, german, japanese, etc.)

 

among american vintage pens, in the first tier would be the traditional big names--parker, sheaffer, waterman, wahl-eversharp, plus somewhat less popular but also topnotch makers as conklin, chilton, lebeouf, etc.

 

in the second tier would be other brands, also reliable and well-made (and some also very collectible today, like esterbrook), but initially aimed at a larger market, selling for lower prices; some were sub-brands of the first-tier makers: esterbrook, gold bond, eclipse, diamond medal, wasp, moore (maybe first-tier?), etc.

 

in the third tier was everything else--wearever (although it made some very nice pens, too), venus, arnold, etc. etc. typically these pens had gold-plated, steel, or "durium" nibs, often scratchy, and the plastics were appreciably thinner and lighter than the solidly-built first-tiers.

 

i could be off here and there in this general estimation, but that's pretty much the tier system as i apply it to my own collection. as far as modern pens go, that's another ballgame.

 

Greetings Penmalia,

 

Thanks for this post; now I know the "tier system" too.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[rwilsonedn]

+1 to what penmanila says, mostly. I've only seen the idea of tiers applied to vintage pens. I would say the distinction between first, second, and third tiers is based on the manufacturer's main price point and the cost of the materials they used, more than the quality. Then as now, the price point was influenced by size, reputation, and most importantly marketing budget.

First-tier companies could make high-end pens with expensive materials and elaborate filling systems that required a lot of assembly labor. But they also had inexpensive pens that sometimes descend to the rather shoddy. And some of the second- and third-tier companies actually produced some very nice pens. But the second- and third-tier guys didn't generally use 14K nibs after reliable stainless nibs became available, and they didn't use the most expensive celluloid, gold furniture, vacuum filling mechanisms with a dozen parts, or other expensive items. They aimed to serve a more price-sensitive, but very large market. Thus Wearever never made an expensive pen, so far as I know, but they probably made more fountain pens than any other manufacturer in the world.

Don't assume that only first-tier pens are worth looking at. Some of the others are beautiful, and if in good shape or if properly refurbished they can be wonderful writers, just like the first-tier. But they'll always be pens that sold for $1 at the drug store, not $20 at the pen store.

ron

[penmanila]

indeed, it's important to note what ron says, that the "tier" system is by no means absolute, and that a "first-tier" pen maker like parker, within the same decade, produced a top-of-the line pen like the senior maxima and the humble parkette. i suppose the depression in the 30s caused many pen makers to compromise and produce more down-market pens--many still good writers, but with less expensive materials and fittings.

 

so brand alone is certainly not a good measure of what a pen might be worth, as a writer and on the market. the "tiers" are merely indicative, a kind of quick look at the possibilities.

 

sometimes, whole brands slid into mediocrity. for example (and the wahl collectors can correct my ignorance here), after its glory days from the 20s to the 40s, it's hard to think of a top-of-the-line wahl or eversharp collectible.

 

a second-tier maker like eclipse could also turn up true beauties in its heyday, such as this mid-1920s cocobolo eclipse that's the size of a parker duofold senior, and every bit its match in quality:

 

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6140/5929345292_258839a038.jpg

 

so then as now, brands are a guide, but everything still comes down to the individual pen and one's own tastes and budget when it comes to selecting a pen.

[dasmart]

thanks guys i read every ones post.

 

@colfer, though ur tier measurements weren't what i was looking for, definitely still a good read and idea.

 

thanks to the toher 2 for clarifying.

 

so craftsmanship is definitely a huge factor in these tiers. good to know tehse infos. i was looking into some of the arnold celluloids and another oen i forget. the body looked nice with greens or pinks(maybe light red) or blue celluloids or similar material, but was a bit skeptical about the pens performance. n i knwo light can be deceiving esp with photography, maybe it might not be as shiney n cool in the hands.

 

 

i'm pretty much over wearevers.., exp too many crummy ones to even pay 5$ for one =/. Any third tier pens you guys suggest? It doesnt' have to have a 14k gold nib of coures, just something that looks nice n is usually sturdy, or at least doesn't have that cheap feel like all thost typical wearevers all over e-bay >.< lols

[Bo Bo Olson]

The better Wearevers are in the second tier class like an Esterbrook. They also made 3rd tier pens.

I have some 10 Wearever top pens from just before and after the war that are fine looking lever pens. I have some 8 Esterbrook pens. Steel nibs.

Working men pens vs the more well to do first tier.

 

I have...sort of stopped collecting mostly German vintage pens. I have some first tier German pens and some second tier. Mostly the nib is better on the big name pens, though a few of the lesser pens have good Bock or Degassa or Rupp nibs. That Rupp nib is a first class nib on a third class pen, that screwed on to a good second class pen.

Soennecken, MB, Osmia, Pelikan and Kaweco and later Geha pens to about 1965 are top pens.

Artus is a pre and Lamy pen. Lamy made a good pen but was not then big time. Farber Castell was second tier until they bought up Osmia and for a few years had Osmia Farber Castell pens, which were first class.

 

In that there were 120 plus German pen companies many no name second tier pens existed. Good solid second class pens.

 

English..there are others like Conway Stewart but I am not up on English pens.

Swan is first tier, Blackbird second, Jackdaw third in the Marbi Todd company.

[EMM]

First tier would be Edison or MB,

Second would be like Waterman and Pilot,

Third would be Wearever and Esterbrok,

Fourth are chinese and disposables.

 

God tier would somelike like Visconti or Krone.

[OldGriz]

First tier would be Edison or MB,

Second would be like Waterman and Pilot,

Third would be Wearever and Esterbrok,

Fourth are chinese and disposables.

 

God tier would somelike like Visconti or Krone.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree.... Waterman and Pilot pens are first tier....

Esterbrook would be considered second tier but at the top of the tier....

 

Generally the tier system is used to describe only vintage pens not modern pens...... so Visconti and Krone are not even mentioned...

[dasmart]

thanks teh rest of you too for input. much better picture of vintage pens now. on a side note, i personally always hated vintage thinking they were ugly, but after holding a celluloid in my hand my head did a 180... 99% of pictures out there don't do celluloid justice including my own hahaha (in my opinions any ways)

 

 

still hunting for "3rd tier" pens that are worth getting, hard to debate on brand/price. open to suggestions still =P

[fpman]

I'm still pretty much a bottom feeder when it comes to vintage pens, so I've got a number of 3rd and 4th tier pens. I'm with Bo Bo - there are some pretty nice Wearevers out there to go along with the enormous amount of dreck so I wouldn't give up on them completely. Another brand that can get pretty bad is Arnold, but even they have some nice pens. Universal makes some good pens (and some bad ones). I like Morrison (though not necessarily their Military pens)and its sub-brands Roxy and Union.If you can find a Warwick in good condition they make an Eversharp lookalike (though the nib isn't anywhere near as nice). One of my favorites is Tuckersharpe. Scripto lever fillers aren't bad but skip their cartridge pens. Majestic, Nassau, Monitor and Marathon have some nice pens (though I must confess I don't own any, though I do have some of their mechanical pencils). I also like the Inkograph (makers of Stylographic pens) fountain pens.

[publishing guy]

Let me throw in a vote on behalf of the humble "third tier" pens.

 

Some of them are just great -- more beautiful and varied celluloids than the big guys were using and an occasional nib that absolutely suprises and delights. I've found great writers made by Wearever and recently ran across one called "Good Service." To be honest, I have MBs and Auroras with nibs that won't match 'em. I'm looking at an old "Salz" right now that is absolutely beautiful and writes great.

 

So far as I've been able to discern. One is wiser to judge the pen individually rather than place too much stock in its "tier."

[jslallar]

so i tried the search function with "tiers" n i got a whole wide array of articles that iddn't quite explain to me what this conept is.

 

so i've seen on some fountain pen fan/business sites by other peole they mention tiers. Like particular brands are of a general lower quality?

 

what is classified as tier 1 2 or 3? and how is it classified? i presume quality is the biggtest factor n this isn't a functino of price?

 

i mean like i've seen a lot of not so main stream brands of vintage fountain pens that have nice celluloids, but are far cheaper like under 20$. Are these worth while in buying? or are they prone to breaking? i guess i'm wondering is a "3rd tier" pen actually bad? or is it just not "as good"

 

 

Have a look at this link http://www.fountainp..._1#entry2182916

and

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/215461-favourite-three-pen-companies/page__hl__tier

Edited June 6, 2012 by jslallar