Swastika Pen

[Makar]

A recent auction saw an MB 139 previously owned by the Nazi Ribbentrop (with documentation) sell for...£330! The MB 139 can make 10 times that on a good day - without the nazi association. A tricky one to value I would say.

[Vintagepens]

Crossover collectibles can be tricky. Ideally, there is some overlap -- people who collect in both of the categories into which the crossover item falls -- and the overlap is synergistic, so that those crossover collectors will pay more than collectors who are active in only one of the categories.

 

Often, however, the boost in value isn't significant, and sometimes there isn't any at all. In the case of pens and Nazi memorabilia, the effect is generally negative: pen collectors as a whole are repelled by a Nazi connection, and collectors of Nazi memorabilia seem to value pens qua pens as of no greater significance than paperweights. I don't know about the market for Italian Fascist memorabilia, however, so there the effect on market value might be entirely different.

 

Do you have a link for that 139 auction? That pen would seem to have slipped through the cracks -- a very low price having more to do with the sale not being properly publicized, I'd think, rather than with the market value of the pen in question.

[Makar]

Do you have a link for that 139 auction? That pen would seem to have slipped through the cracks -- a very low price having more to do with the sale not being properly publicized, I'd think, rather than with the market value of the pen in question.

 

 

Here is a link to the pen from a thread on FPN that Pen Nut started. It did slip through the cracks pric wise for sure but an interesting one re ethics and desirability etc.

 

Ribbnetrop 139

 

Stephen

[saintsimon]

... in keeping history alive and available to learn from. ...

That's why these things belong into a museum for a wider public presentation, not into the dark drawers of a collector or even an admirer.

[WanderingAuthor]

Though not an object I feel I need to own, I do believe in the value of collectors of such things for the job they do in keeping history alive and available to learn from. There is a counter POV to this that such objects are merely to be daemonized and are best not talked about, I don't agree!

 

I very much agree with you on this. Silence on such subjects is the surest way to keep them vital. The fact that I personally could never bear to be such a collector doesn't change the fact I think someone does need to do it. As long as they are not motivated by an admiration for the evils of that period, I actively commend those who do so.

[zal]

ribbentrop was a figure who was less murderous than extremes like heydrich, himmler, bormann etc. (not to talk about the good old corporal) and i dont know whether this pen was used for signing papers which would have led to crimes against humanity, if i had that pen i would keep it but i dont think that i would write letters to my loved ones with it or write with it in any way.

 

it is true that the pen is an inanimate object, no doubt, but pens - like old captains swear about ships - do have a bit of soul, just a little bit. they have a legacy which can be passed on from generation to generation, that is why we treasure the pens used by our forefathers, not because that we are stingy but because a part of their blessing comes along with it, a part of their good feelings comes along with it, a part of their shared values and shared moments with their family and friends - like how they would have used that pen to write letters home - comes along with it.

 

that is also the same reason why we treasure fountain pens received from an author, teacher, leader, parents, wife etc.

 

rgds.

 

krishna.

[Makar]

ribbentrop was a figure who was less murderous than extremes like heydrich, himmler, bormann etc.

krishna.

 

He was found guilty at Nuremberg on the same four counts as Bormann. I don't think it is helpful to start talking about 'grades' of nazis here.

[zal]

ribbentrop was a figure who was less murderous than extremes like heydrich, himmler, bormann etc.

krishna.

 

He was found guilty at Nuremberg on the same four counts as Bormann. I don't think it is helpful to start talking about 'grades' of nazis here.

 

no grading intended, especially since bormann was not physically present to answer the charges in the trail. the discussion is about the pen and its legacy, the names came in only as a by product. no intention to lessen the crimes that the nazis had committed including ribbentrop.

 

rgds.

 

krishna.

Edited September 19, 2011 by akrishna59

[Chris Pittman]

I think it is a very interesting pen and I would be happy to own it as part of my collection. It is a piece of history and very evocative of the time in which it was made and used. I think the power of this symbol, even today, speaks to the historical importance of an things like this little propaganda pen. A collection is perhaps the best repository for something such as this. The number of people who visit museums has declined sharply in recent years and many have shut their doors, most museums have very limited space and funding and few would dedicate space to displaying this type of object, an interesting and typical thing from that time but one without unique and profound historical significance as, for example, a pen used to sign a surrender treaty or similar. Most people who collect original historical objects from WWII are not neo-Nazis or people who admire Hitler, such types are usually content with flashy replicas and the like. Many collectors of wartime German material of all kinds make their collections available to scholars or other collectors in one way or another, which makes a contribution to the historical record and helps preserve the history of these dark days. I can understand why someone would not wish to own an item such as this but at the same time I think it is important to note that not everyone who would want this pen in a collection is a Nazi creep.

[Guest ClanPeters]

Thanks everyone for the comments, feedback on origin and date, plus stories about the era.

 

I am not a collector so I would like to sell the pen. Would $750 - $1000 USD be a fair price?

[Cuthbert]

And, by the way, I do understand and very much respect the fact that Italy was not nearly as active in this regard as Germany. Just as not every German was a Nazi, with the "lax" approach under Mussolini to "eugenic hygeine", no doubt many Italians never even suspected the full extent of the evil their government had allied itself with. And many more of them actively worked to thwart that evil. Since this is an Italian pen, and I've just made a rather negative comment, I think it is only fair to point this out.

 

I beg to differ: the italians didn't have a more "relaxed" approach to the eugenic hygiene, most of the scientific racism was based on the "studies" of an italian, Cesare Lombroso (ironically, a jew) and they were adopted by the Nazis and the racial policies of the italian government was very well known by the population: most of the italian shops in that era showed cartels that declared their "aryan" pedigree, and unlike the germans most of these prejudices are still alive among the italian population.

 

Politics outsite, it's the first time that I see an italian pen with a hooked cross, I know that MB made some "special pens" for the german government and the SS while the italian manufacturers made many pens with the fascio littorio.

[zuku]

most of the scientific racism was based on the "studies" of an italian, Cesare Lombroso (ironically, a jew) and they were adopted by the Nazis

 

And one of the greatest criminologists on the XXth century arguing that crime is inherited -a social darwinism that presents sub-humans resembling apes on their phisical characteristics. So a born criminal had anatomical traits, most particulary sloping forehead, which applies preassure to the frontal lobe of the brain, producing anti-social behaviour.

"Lombroso also maintained that criminals had less sensibility to pain and touch; more acute sight; a lack of moral sense, including an absence of remorse; more vanity, impulsiveness, vindictiveness, and cruelty; and other manifestations, such as a special criminal argot and the excessive use of tattooing", from wiki.

[diplomat]

... and unlike the germans most of these prejudices are still alive among the italian population.

 

It's nice of you to let us know about your opinions, thank you.

Just, please, next time specify those are only your opinion.

 

Cheers,

[UltraMagnus]

From what I have read, a lot of nazi memorabilia collectors are Jewish.

[alessbon]

interesting stuff

[nicholasyeo]

Wow, this is interesting, many MB "Nazi" pens were proven to be fake

and here comes a real specimen?

[pickles]

I used to be a WWII historian and I worked with a lot of museums and collectors--if this is authentic, it could definitely go for $500+. I don't see this pen being something the Nazi Party would have distributed, but I'm sure there were enough Italian/German pen makers who would have made something like this as a propaganda thing.

[padams2359]

I would not want to touch the thing, much less own it. Maybe the Holocaust Museum in Washington or Houston would like to have it. How did it get into your possession?

[Chris Pittman]

This pen is part of a vast myriad of propaganda-type items produced in those years, huge numbers of items of this type still exist and can be purchased in many cases for very little money, as little as a few dollars for a common propaganda badge. Part of the reason for this is that these things had broad appeal to the American soldiers fighting in Europe during WWII; a great many soldiers saw value in these things (either historical value, or simply souvenir value) and returning servicemen brought lots of these type of items home with them. I have seen many things like this still in the possesion of these veterans, or kept as heirlooms by their families. This pen is a rare item and of course has significant value as a collectible, however it lacks more profound historical significance or a direct historical connection that would make it appealing to a museum, and in fact a great many people would be displeased to know how many 20th century historical items donated to museums are immediately sold out the back door into private collections. As a side note, to correct one of the erroneous statements made earlier in this thread, such an item could indeed be sold in Germany; some of the biggest sellers of Third Reich material (dealers and auction houses) are based in Germany and sell these items to collectors and institutions worldwide. Public display of the swastika in a political context is unconstitutional there, but display in a historical or documentary context is permitted, as is the buying and selling of Nazi-era historical items as long as both parties agree that the material will not be used in a way that violates the constitutional law.

[saintsimon]

... As a side note, to correct one of the erroneous statements made earlier in this thread, such an item could indeed be sold in Germany; some of the biggest sellers of Third Reich material (dealers and auction houses) are based in Germany and sell these items to collectors and institutions worldwide. Public display of the swastika in a political context is unconstitutional there, but display in a historical or documentary context is permitted, as is the buying and selling of Nazi-era historical items as long as both parties agree that the material will not be used in a way that violates the constitutional law.

It helps to know the criminal code covering this subject. I wasn't very specific, but those dealers learnt to walk on a thin rope when trading with these "memorabilia", the international markets are certainly easier for them. The law covers the distribution of unconstitutional items and makes some exeptions for educational, historic and scientific purposes. So the dealers paint them as something that superficially pleases the law, but sometimes the swastikas are removed from the original objects to avoid domestic trouble.

 

Here are the specific legal articles from the criminal code in German, for those who can understand them:

http://www.gesetze-i...ml#Seitenanfang

http://www.gesetze-i...ml#Seitenanfang

Edited November 9, 2011 by saintsimon