Heavy Modern Pens - Why?

[rhosygell]

I may well be missing some important marketing / psychological / perceived twaddle point here, but surely modern pens need not be so heavy.

 

Obviously someone somewhere thinks weight = quality. Not so. A properly engineered, quality item can also be light with the use of appropriate modern lightweight materials - any current penmaker fancy trying it ?

 

Using an M800 today has brought this on. It weighs a ton in comparison with a similarly sized BCHR vintage Waterman (15PSF).

 

Anyone else of a similar mind ?

 

(edited for typos)

Edited June 14, 2011 by rhosygell

[Pippin60]

I may well be missing some important marketing / psychological / perceived twaddle point here, but surely modern pens need not be so heavy.

 

Obviously someone somewhere thinks weight = quality. Not so. A properly engineered, quality item can also be light with the use of appropriate modern lightweight materials - any current penmaker fancy trying it ?

 

Using an M800 today has brought this on. It weighs a ton in comparison with a similarly sized BCHR vintage Waterman (15PSF).

 

Anyone else of a similar mind ?

 

(edited for typos)

 

You presume too much in your weight vs. quality assumption. I for one just prefer heavy pens, it helps my writing and at least for me allows a looser grip. I have large hands and its a personal preferance. My favorite is actually an m1000, second would be my Yard-o-led Grand Barley. You're really just seeing personal preference at least in my case.

[Ghost Plane]

I like to let the pen's weight do the work. Less hand cramps in an 8 hour + day of writing. Lighter pens require a tighter grip, so they're less comfortable for me. Can't speak for anyone else.

[snoww]

I used to feel that heavy pens are of better quality etc till i tried a few chinese pen that were heavy too !

 

Personally I prefer a mid weight pen , too heavy and it gets tiring.. too light and it feels as if you need to apply some pressure to write...

 

 

The perfect weight pen writes under its own weight and doesn't tire you after long hours of writing.

[Koyote]

I like to let the pen's weight do the work. Less hand cramps in an 8 hour + day of writing. Lighter pens require a tighter grip, so they're less comfortable for me. Can't speak for anyone else.

 

+1

[FlatCactus]

Personally I like pens of all sizes and weights. I go for looks, feel in hand and durability when looking for a pen.

 

 

In my opinion a heavy pen only feels really heavy if it's unbalanced. The Lamy dialog 3 for example weighs (apparently) a ton at 46 grams. Due to the balance being inside the hand when in use however I find that it holds itself.

 

As opposed to the heavy = higher quality, I go by how well the pen is finished (thread smoothness, precision of parts etc.).

 

I do have to say, after being brought up on those cheap disposable stick ballpoints that broke the moment you looked at them, the 45g solid steel Parker urban ballpoint was great (my first 'fancy' pen) after six months of daily use at school it didn't even have a dent. I now know that even lightweight plastic pens can be ridiculously durable. My Lamy safari fell out of my pocket when I tripped over a bag. I soon realized and rushed back to find a giant scratch across one side of the cap, it looked like it had been stepped on and kicked against a wall. This would have spelled the death of many a no-name ballpoint but the Lamy safari lives on, with the scratch (now smoothed from use) still the cap.

 

-John

 

EDIT : typo

Edited June 14, 2011 by FlatCactus

[wrath186]

I prefer heavy pens. Partly due to letting the weight do the work in writing and partly because I like the hefty feeling in my hand. Personal favorites include, Twisbi Diamond 530, Pelikan M1000, and Waterman Kilbarry. All of which fit into the upper mid weight to heavy weight pens.

[JLS1]

I've also find that the pens in my rotation have a variety of weights: my Rotrings and Lamy pens are uniformly heavy pens that make my MBs feel like featherweights in comparison. What makes the difference for me is the combination of how the pen feels in my hand and how smoothly it writes.

[stefanv]

If you think an M800 is heavy, try a Cross Townsend. My 1995-ish 10K gold-filled Townsend weighs about 41g (1.5oz). An M800 weighs 29g(1oz).

 

Personally, I prefer them a bit lighter. My M200 is about 0.5oz and my M605 about 0.6oz. I agree that there's no reason a pen has to be heavy to be solid and reliable, nor does it have to be heavy in order to "let it do the work". If a light pen doesn't write under its own weight, there's something wrong with the ink flow.

Edited June 14, 2011 by stefanv

[Bo Bo Olson]

Your 800 has a brass piston, at the back of the pen, making it back weighted.

That is the difference you have noticed.

In I believe you are still using some sort of 'death grip, or pinch of death' grip...that would be noticeable because you are fighting your pens natural balancing point.

 

Some noobies are leery of spending lots of money on 'cheap' breakable plastic, knowing more about cheap plastic ball points. There a metal ball point is good, it don't break in the pants pocket. (As everyone knows I'd rather carry my fountain pen in my teeth than stick it in a pants pocket, but some are allergic to shirt pockets or belt pouches.)

 

Part of the problem is modern standard sized pens appear to be rare, out side Pelikan and a small c/c MB...

 

I don't even know which modern pen companies make 'standard sized' pen as part of it's main lines, out side of Pelikan. Could be still some Italian ones.

But I'm sort of ignorant about modern pens, in most cases the nibs are not up to '80's or '50-65 era standards, and I chase nibs.

I also have two or three c/c pens so that I don't ever need another one.

(Outside of a Dupont)

 

Somewhere along the line, perhaps to fit more cartridges into a pen body, Large and Over Sized pens replaced the older standard (Esterbrook DJ, Pelikan 200/400 sizes) and Medium Large pen like the P-51. Big = better?

The mind set has changed to Large and Over large fountain pens are by the 'younger' members considered 'normal', so some refuse to post standard pens made to be posted and complain, it is too small.

 

Many start with "cheap" Chinese lacquer brass barreled pens, and think a fountain pen should be heavy. Many of the modern old company's metal pens are Large and Over large and will weigh much more.

 

I have a Large Cross Townsend, that is heavy. I'd have no problem using it, if the nib was not a stiff regular.

I have a Lamy Persona that is Large and somewhat heavy, having had the nib modified from stiff OB to CI, I now use it often.

 

I would have no problem using a Dupont, it is well balanced, with it's weight.

 

Your 800 is a brass piston pen, so is back weighted like my MB 234 1/2 Deluxe ('52-55 only)

 

That will make a pen feel heavier in the weight is located in the back, it will set deeper into the web of your thumb.

 

Look up "death grip" on advanced search.

I don't like the 'tripod' grip, in all the pictures I see it's a 'pinch' system.

I like a forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen.

 

1.You place the fountain pen, 1/3 of an inch lower on your middle finger first joint, so it is not at the junction of nail to flesh....where you have your dent or callus.

2. you place your forefinger on top of the pen section at 12:00-13:00.

3. Then last you place the flat pad of your thumb where it feels comfortable. Do not pinch with the front of the thumb.

 

There is two variations, one for un-posted the other for posted pens.

One the un-posted version I call the 'short' forefinger up. The forefinger is a bit more bent, your pen rests naturally at 45-40 degrees. (depends some on the weight (back weight) of the pen) IE just above the start of the web of your thumb or at the start of the web of your thumb. It is good also for calligraphy.

 

The second version I call the 'long' forefinger up (the forefinger is flatter on the barrel not so bent, so the forefinger is longer), it is good for posted pens. The thumb will naturally be a tad higher up the pen. The pen rests at the start of the web of the thumb to the depth of the pocket.

 

I normally post, but I do not force the pen to be any place in the web of the thumb, letting the natural balance of the pen find it's own 'place'.

 

I have lighter pens that sit naturally at the start of the web of my thumb, I have a brass pistoned pen and a few heavier metal pens that rest in the depth of the pocket of my thumb.

 

Not all metal pens are heavy. A P-75 is the lightest metal pen I have ever owned, and posted it sits higher up in the web of my thumb, than my deep sitting, brass piston posted MB 234 1/2.

 

If you go over to the forefinger up there is no more fighting the weight of the pen.

It takes some three minutes to learn.

With in a week I'd gone to doing that way of grasping like one would a baby bird my fountain pen, most of the time. After about a month of trying this way of 'grasping' a fountain pen, I found I was using it 95% of the time. Now I have to tell my self to pinch or death grip to change the way I 'grasp' a pen.

When one 'grasps' a pen with the forefinger up, one holds it much lighter, your pen is not pressed into the paper, and one don't have to fight your pen.

 

Then it don't matter if a pen is heavy, back weighted or light, it will find it's natural balance point.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[bluejay]

I like to let the pen's weight do the work. Less hand cramps in an 8 hour + day of writing. Lighter pens require a tighter grip, so they're less comfortable for me. Can't speak for anyone else.

Agreed. One reason why I can't find a good ballpoint is because of the amount of pressure I need to place on the paper during a 3hr exam causes 3 hand cramps. A perfect weighted pen will be perfected for your writing style. Hand size and arm length posture...etc. No such thing as heavy. But I agree to a certain degree we will always have in our minds that heavier materials defines quality. This is why you really need to try each pen before you buy it. I think the real question is if there is a difference between dipping a pen and trying and filling the pen with ink and writing?

[DanielCoffey]

Some of the hallmarked silver or gold pens can weigh almost 100g - take a look at the silver or gold Onoto Magna Classics.

 

I have medium but broad hands and find the Pelikan M800 to be a comfortable weight. While the M215s I once had were much lighter, I did not find them as comfortable to hold due to their size. It is all really down to what fits in your hand and how you hold the pen.

[DrPJM1]

IMHO: Balance is more important than weight. However, I prefer medium to lightweight large pens.

[rhosygell]

In reply to BoBo, I am using a clasp type grip, not a "death pinch". I find it top heavy from familiarity with vintage lever fillers, often large ones like the aforementioned Waterman 15PSF.

 

I may get used to the damn Pelikan in time.

Edited June 14, 2011 by rhosygell

[mirosc]

My guess is that these days (with handwriting becoming less and less popular) many grab a pen and want to FEEL it: oh what a weight, oh what a class, oh what a nice feeling of oldfashioned solid metal craftsmanship. That's style! That's serious! I'm feeling so important / grown up / elder statesman / whatever...

 

And so these pens are made by the manufacturers.

There are many personal tastes, but fountain pens have fashions and trends, too; it's the same with girth.

[Wolverine1]

Well, it is more an issue of personal preference. I dont have large hands, but, i prefer heavier and larger pens. I.E., I like pens larger than the Pelikan M800. Like Ghost Plane, and Bo Bo have said, i make th e pen's weight do the work for me.

 

And, greater weight or size does not necessarily indicate quality. The poorly made, heavy Chinese made pens are one example of some rather dodgy pens.

[jar]

It really depends on the pen. I find many of my heavier pens like the ST Duponts; the Sheaffer Targa, Legacy, Legacy 2, Legacy Heritage; the Waterman Gentleman and Man 100s work really well and are comfortable to use over extended periods. However I also find many well made lighter pens equally comfortable when used over an extended period; today and for the last few days a Sheaffer wire fill Sentinel Deluxe from around '47 or so.

 

In general I think weight itself is only a small factor.

[Surf Monkey]

Heavy or light, it depends on the pen for me. I like my heavy fountain pens, but I like my featherweight Cross Century as well. Personally, I think the heavy pen trend is like the big watch trend. These items are luxury products now, not the necessities they were years ago. People spending on luxury want something substantial for their money.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Let the 800 sit more in the web of your thumb ...move your thumb up the barrel a bit. ....even perhaps try it posted so it rests deep in the pocket. With the pocket supporting it, it has less weight.

 

Even plastic piston pens are said to be back weight 'heavy' to pure lever users. The balance point is higher up the barrel.

 

I have mostly Esterbrook and Wearever as lever pens. The Esterbrook I have posts lots longer than my Pelikan 400.

I do notice the Esterbook is 'lighter' but I also notice it is longer posted. So by me it balance's out being = to the posted 400.

By others perhaps not.

 

Final check before I leave grip alone, the pad of your thumb is flat on the pen?

Not the tip of the thumb?

[rhosygell]

Let the 800 sit more in the web of your thumb ...move your thumb up the barrel a bit. ....even perhaps try it posted so it rests deep in the pocket. With the pocket supporting it, it has less weight.

 

Even plastic piston pens are said to be back weight 'heavy' to pure lever users. The balance point is higher up the barrel.

 

I have mostly Esterbrook and Wearever as lever pens. The Esterbrook I have posts lots longer than my Pelikan 400.

I do notice the Esterbook is 'lighter' but I also notice it is longer posted. So by me it balance's out being = to the posted 400.

By others perhaps not.

 

Final check before I leave grip alone, the pad of your thumb is flat on the pen?

Not the tip of the thumb?

 

Yes. I never post pens. Absolutely hate it - even makes lever fillers top heavy.