So What Exactly Is The Difference Between A $50 Pen And A $150 Pen?

[tonybelding]

Anyway, these pens are quite smooth in my opinion, and write quite well, though I've never written with a $XXX pen before. and I don't mind spending the money, Id just like to know what I'd be getting into ahead of time?

 

IMHO the TWSBI is a $120 pen that, somehow, they are giving way for $40. Crazy bargain.

 

Regarding nib sizes: The nibs are made in Germany. There is no real standard for nib sizes, and (as you observed) they can vary even from the same company. The size stamped on the nib is best regarded as a guideline, an estimate. . .

 

When I first started with fountain pens, my impression was a lot like yours. I'd been using something like a Pilot Precise V5 which is similar to a EF nib. The first fountain pen I bought, I got a medium nib. I didn't know anything about nibs, I just figured "medium" was a safe choice. Then I got it, and I couldn't believe it. How could anybody write with this fat, wet, flabby tip? Holy cats, what must the BROAD nib be like???

 

One problem is that I was pressing down too hard on a soft nib. Over time I got used to fountain pens, lightened my grip, and my taste evolved, and now I like medium nibs OK, although fines are still my mainstay. (I still can't abide broad nibs.)

 

Another thing you'll learn is that some inks spread slightly on the page and make a wider line than others. Noodler's Black is a favorite of mine, it feathers and spreads very little and makes a noticeably finer line than most inks. So if you have a nib you like, except that it's a smidge too fat, you might try putting Noodler's Black into it.

[AltecGreen]

I would like a nib that's floating in thickness somewhere close my 0.4mm gel sharbo, while still being as smooth to write with (or smoother) than a pilot G2 or my A.G. Spalding & Bros Rollerball. Something that keeps very consistent line width regardless of direction of travel or writing angle (to some degree, vectors and diagrams and such can get kinda intense these days). If it has some beautiful shading, thats cool too but isn't a big issue. Something that lays a shiny wet line that makes me slow down and enjoy writing without smudging up my paper. Something like an old roadster. Like when you swap from shaving with an electric or a mach 3 to a nice, expensive badger hair brush and heavy well made safety razor. Something that makes you step back and just go "wow I ENJOY this" you know?

 

As for the body of the pen, I'd like it to weigh somewhere between 19 and 23 grams (filled), and (ideally) somewhere between 8mm and 13mm in diameter, about 135mm in length

 

 

To get a line like you described, you don't have many options among modern pens unless you get a custom grind. Four nibs come to mind, the Sailor EF, Sailor Sai-bi Togi, Platinum (Nakaya) EF, Platinum (Nakaya) Super Extra Fine.

 

I used to use those Japanese 0.4 mm pens until I switched to fountain pens. The standard Sailor F, Platinum F, or Pilot F nibs are wider than a line from a 0.4 mm pen. In all honesty, the best match would be the Sailor Sai-bi Togi or the Platinum SEF. The Sai-bi Togi is a specialty nib and is the most expensive of the four. I don't believe the Platinum nibs come on any of their mass produced (really cheap) pens. You can get a Sailor Desk pen that has a Sailor EF nib for $10.50 from Jet Pens. These really are the only stock modern nibs I know of that will give you the line you seek. Tuning of the flow is another matter.

 

The other option is to get a custom grind. You probably will need a XXXF or finer grind on a western nib to get the results you need.

 

For a vintage pen, I recommend wartime Japanese pens with steel Shiro nibs. Although I would not recommend this path for a fountain pen beginner.

 

The problem you face is that there are no nib size standards. There are some very general rules of thumb. Western nibs are at least one size bigger than a Japanese equivalent. Sometimes it's one and a half or more depending on the brands being compared. Thus a Western F is more like a Japanese M. The TWSBI nibs are German and thus sized like German nibs. Vintage Western nibs are also finer than their modern counterparts although this is harder to quantify. Vintage Japanese nibs are pretty close to their modern counterparts.

Edited April 28, 2011 by AltecGreen

[tonybelding]

but like, some pens have 14k gold, 18k gold, steel nibs, etc.

 

is 14k vs 18k going to make any sort of difference in how the pen feels when put to paper?

 

The advantage of 18K gold is bragging rights. 18 is a bigger number than 14, and more gold is worth more money. Plus, some countries actually require no less than 18K gold content if the nib is to be advertised as "gold". As far as actual writing performance is concerned, some of our experts regard 18K gold alloy as an inferior material. It's too soft. I find some 18K nibs feel "mushy", which I do not particularly like.

 

Regarding 14K gold versus stainless steel. . . . The only practical difference is that 14K gold nibs can sometimes be semi-flexible, which is much less common in steel nibs. I personally prefer a firm nib anyhow for my ordinary everyday scribblings. I like steel nibs.

 

In theory gold is more corrosion-resistant than steel, but in practice it doesn't matter. Modern stainless steel is so corrosion-resistant, and modern inks so benign, that the rest of the pen is going to wear out before corrosion becomes a problem anyhow.

 

Remember, the actual tip that touches the page is not steel or gold. It's made from very hard tipping material traditionally, though not entirely accurately, referred to as "iridium".

[nostalgic]

A company like, say Waterman would never make a cheap pen be on average a better pen than a more expensive one in their range. It is the same as with cars. If you make the larger better car cheaper than the smaller mediocre car you won't sell the mediocre car any more.

 

Good point. Parker had this problem during the Depression. To bolster its deteriorating sales without "cheapening" its top-of-the-line Duofold brand, it introduced a line of less-expensive pens it called Thrift Time (also referred to as Depression pens) which were branded as Duette in the U.S.A. and Moderne in Canada. These were produced from 1932-1936. Many consider these pens excellent buys both because of the quality of the pens and their relative rarity.

Vintage pens add two entirely different dimensions to the difference between a $50 and $150 pen--rarity and history. (Rarity is similar to the LE pens, though.) Quality and functionality are still important, as are the nibs. Many users prefer the flexibility of some vintage nibs, for example, and say they are better than almost all modern flex nibs. By and large, it took more hand labor and craftsmanship to make a vintage pen. And that is valued by many pen buffs.

[erratik]

Lots of useful information here guys, thanks a ton. I see that there is no clear answer to my question, and hope i didn't come off as not liking my twsbi's, because i certainly do. I was just thinking "man, I bought 2 of these, and 4 or 5 nibs plus the ones the pens came with. I could totally have gotten a nice $150 pen by this time" but clearly that could have been just as bad or worse off. my only real complaint about the twsbi is the diameter of the pen, I have small hands and find myself squeezing it harder than i do my sharbos, and would prefer a pen more along those sizes, but i can deal with it at the cost of quality of writing.

 

I just do NOT want to make this a hobby. my audiophilia and denim obsession are more than expensive enough, and I'd prefer if I just got a couple pens I really enjoyed and walked away before i was too hurt, haha. Maybe one day I'll look into a custom pen if I ever have an excessive amount of cash lying about...

[shl]

get a VP fine and you'll be all set for life!!

[erratik]

I hear nothing but good things about them, I just wish I could hold one and see how it feels in my hand, how balanced it is, etc

[shl]

actually I hear the clip placement does bother some people so that may be a consideration.

[JOBPM]

erratik

 

I'm sure someone over in the market forum would be willing to take those extra nibs (assuming you don't want them) off your hands. You should grab a Pilot 78G, you can get them dirt cheap and the F nibs lay down a really fine line.

Lighter and smaller than what you're looking for, but at a price you can't really go wrong with.

 

It would be worthwhile to get in contact with some online retailers and ask them about their return policies. I believe there are some that will give you a trial period in which you may dip the pen but not fill it. A dipped pen will behave a little differently than a filled one, but it should give you a good feel for the nib.

[Joshua J.]

...I just do NOT want to make this a hobby...

 

I think this statement is approximately one pen and four or five nibs too late.

 

I do encourage you to stick with the TWSBI though. As long as it writes well and doesn't dry out (the cap seals well) you've got a pen that's as good as any other.

Now is probably a good time to move on to paper and ink for a while. Thankfully this part of the hobby does not cost very much.

[tonybelding]

I have a VP and love it. It's a bit hefty and exceptionally well made. The first one I got was a fine point which was a good nib but too fine for me -- more like a EF. Then I got a M nib unit, which is more like a typical fine nib that I prefer. The click mechanism is very convenient.

 

Caveats: The converter doesn't hold much ink. Although the grip works well for me, it does become a bit uncomfortable for long (i.e. multi-page) writing sessions. Although the 18K M nib is very good quality, it's a bit soft and semi-flexible, whereas my taste runs more towards firm nibs generally.

 

For a slim-and-comfortable pen with a firm, smooth nib, I favor my vintage and semi-vintage Sheaffers: Snorkels, Imperials, Targas. A Parker "51" is always a good bet too.

[CatBookMom]

No one has mentioned the Platinum Preppy/Plaisir. The Preppy is a cheap pen ($3) that looks like a cheap pen but you have a really good chance of getting a decent writing nib, and they have F (.03) and M (.05) nibs. The Plaisir is a Preppy nib/section with a much nicer casing - pearlized metallic in pales and deep jewel colors - and costs all of $20. I have four Plaisirs and with a tiny bit of pressure against my thumbnail all of them now write rather nicely; currently I have an F with Noodlers Black Swan in Australian Roses and the M has Noodlers Bad Belted Kingfisher. You can make the Preppy (or have Goulet do it) into an eyedropper pen, but the Plaisir is a cartridge/converter.

 

Nor has anyone mentioned the Pilot 78G. You can buy them from a Hong Kong dealer for under $8 or from hisnibs dot com for more; hisnibs makes sure they write nicely. I don't know the precise mm sizes, but the F leaves a thread of color on the paper and the B is a stub with some nice variation in color. They have cheap and very annoying squeeze converters but work with a cartridge quite nicely; I think you can use a nicer piston converter. All 3 of mine (F, M & "B") write quite acceptably.

 

These may not be the pens you want to settle into using long-term, but they can give you an inexpensive way to figure out what size nib you really like best, and they're widely-enough available that you could use them as a reference point. Or I think so, anyway.

 

ATM, I'm struggling with my cursive italic handwriting practice: my best pens (well over $150) are showing various cranky-making erratic behaviors and need to visit a nib-meister. My $40 Lamy Al-Star with the interchangeable nibs, currently an F, is skating over the paper beautifully with Private Reserve Tanzanite. And my under-$150 mint Parker 51 makes writing a happy happy thing with Iroshizuku syo-ro (dark green) ink.

 

So as they say YMMV (your mileage [experience] may vary); I'm presently very happy with my less-expensive pens.

Edited April 29, 2011 by CatBookMom

[erratik]

...I just do NOT want to make this a hobby...

 

I think this statement is approximately one pen and four or five nibs too late.

 

I do encourage you to stick with the TWSBI though. As long as it writes well and doesn't dry out (the cap seals well) you've got a pen that's as good as any other.

Now is probably a good time to move on to paper and ink for a while. Thankfully this part of the hobby does not cost very much.

 

I know, right . . . .

 

Paper has been a bit of an issue for me every since I was about 10 and someone at school gave me some 4B hardness 0.5mm lead which i promptly placed into my zebra m301 and had my life changed. Never again did I touch recycled paper. For the longest time it was Mead 5stars, the ones with the black cloth thing around the bindings. After that it was off to HP Laserjet 24lb printer paper and some random 20lb stock legal pads I found at office depot. After that it was Black N Reds for about 5 semesters and now I'm on Rhodia's which I don't like as much as black n reds, too textured, but I may swap to clairefontaine unless I can find an 8.5"x11" or at least like. . . 16cm x 24cm notebook similar to my Cartesio or CIAK (actually, I have a topic in the paper forum on this, as I had already Emailed Brian over at goulet and he couldnt think of any either . . .)

 

as for inks, I'm quite in love with my noodlers eel turqoise and to a lesser extent the dragons napalm, I dont really care to have a whole lot of colors, I just like a little bit of color coding and being able to distinguish vectors in reference frames and such more easily

 

I have a VP and love it. It's a bit hefty and exceptionally well made. The first one I got was a fine point which was a good nib but too fine for me -- more like a EF. Then I got a M nib unit, which is more like a typical fine nib that I prefer. The click mechanism is very convenient.

 

Caveats: The converter doesn't hold much ink. Although the grip works well for me, it does become a bit uncomfortable for long (i.e. multi-page) writing sessions. Although the 18K M nib is very good quality, it's a bit soft and semi-flexible, whereas my taste runs more towards firm nibs generally.

 

For a slim-and-comfortable pen with a firm, smooth nib, I favor my vintage and semi-vintage Sheaffers: Snorkels, Imperials, Targas. A Parker "51" is always a good bet too.

 

I can't imagine it getting uncomfortable really, unless its a noticeably uncomfy or unbalanced pen straight from the get-go. Thats one of the beautiful things about senior and graduate level physics courses, not a lot of constant writing so much as derivations and solving differential equations. lots of time to set the pen down and ponder

 

No one has mentioned the Platinum Preppy/Plaisir. The Preppy is a cheap pen ($3) that looks like a cheap pen but you have a really good chance of getting a decent writing nib, and they have F (.03) and M (.05) nibs. The Plaisir is a Preppy nib/section with a much nicer casing - pearlized metallic in pales and deep jewel colors - and costs all of $20. I have four Plaisirs and with a tiny bit of pressure against my thumbnail all of them now write rather nicely; currently I have an F with Noodlers Black Swan in Australian Roses and the M has Noodlers Bad Belted Kingfisher. You can make the Preppy (or have Goulet do it) into an eyedropper pen, but the Plaisir is a cartridge/converter.

 

Nor has anyone mentioned the Pilot 78G. You can buy them from a Hong Kong dealer for under $8 or from hisnibs dot com for more; hisnibs makes sure they write nicely. I don't know the precise mm sizes, but the F leaves a thread of color on the paper and the B is a stub with some nice variation in color. They have cheap and very annoying squeeze converters but work with a cartridge quite nicely; I think you can use a nicer piston converter. All 3 of mine (F, M & "B") write quite acceptably.

 

These may not be the pens you want to settle into using long-term, but they can give you an inexpensive way to figure out what size nib you really like best, and they're widely-enough available that you could use them as a reference point. Or I think so, anyway.

 

ATM, I'm struggling with my cursive italic handwriting practice: my best pens (well over $150) are showing various cranky-making erratic behaviors and need to visit a nib-meister. My $40 Lamy Al-Star with the interchangeable nibs, currently an F, is skating over the paper beautifully with Private Reserve Tanzanite. And my under-$150 mint Parker 51 makes writing a happy happy thing with Iroshizuku syo-ro (dark green) ink.

 

So as they say YMMV (your mileage [experience] may vary); I'm presently very happy with my less-expensive pens.

 

well as it stands, the size im looking for is pretty much the finest i can get too without sacrificing smoothness or wetness, and i HIGHLY doubt i'll ever consider using a medium or bold nib. Like I said, I could care less for fancy penmanship and such. maybe one day when i have lots of free time ill work on writing pretty, but its just not at all a priority. and i hope this doesnt come off the wrong way but I do want at least some aesthetics in my pens, and the 78g is in my opinion a bit of an eye sore. . and it looks a bit lightweight for my taste.

 

man every pen i look at is so big in diameter cept liek the tombow zoom and such but i havent done any reading on those, but i assume it'll be too bold for my liking

[sharonspens]

There is a pen shop in New Orleans; Papier Plume. http://papierplume.com/ They make their own beautiful inks: FP, dip pen, calligraphy. They also carry a number of pens. Not as well stocked as some shops, but enough to give you an idea of what you might like. No affiliation, but I have shopped there. they have some nice paper, too!

 

Another option - if there is a pen club in your area, or a sympathetic collector or two, you could possibly meet up and try some of that person's pens. I find that most of my pen friends are very willing to let me try their toys out, and I am happy to show off my babies.

 

Finally, keep an eye out for an upcoming pen show fortuitously scheduled in a city near you. I have met some great people at the Ohio Show, and been introduced to pens I would never have considered before (which is why I own three P51s, among other things!).

 

Sharon in Indiana

[Woliaj]

I recently purchased a sailor 1911 m with h-f nib,which is like a western extra fine if that, its VERY thin, but a pleasure to write with and makes your writing look very accurate, in addition the nib is quite firm, with only spring if you apply some pressure, and, if bought from engeika, on ebay, who has very good prices, no affiliation etc. they cost around 100 dollars. The nib is fine smooth, and has good ink flow.

 

p.s. I'm sure you realise that the ink flow also somewhat afects the line width, a gushing fine, will be quite wide whereas a dry will be thinner, when i say good ink flow, it lays down a nice, constant line, and is quite smooth, although be warned it has a fairly small sweetspot.

[WriterJP]

Just another thought - you should also look into ink and how it affects writing.

 

From personal experience, I can tell you some inks promote a wetter, bolder line than others. For instance, my Waterman Hemisphere, as well as some of the pens I've made write bolder with Aurora Black - on the contrary, when you fill them with Parker Quink, they write drier writing.

[joshk]

I personally like the nib on my Sailor the best. It's a Pro Gear Realo with a medium nib that lays a finer line then my Lamy F nib. Very smooth, quite fine, and perfect in every other regard. Runner up would be my Visconti HS, and mostly because it's a medium nib that writes like a Lamy M. Might need to go smaller on that one.

 

If you're very picky about the nib size, try a Sailor Fine or X-Fine. I got mine from nibs.com, and they will also do any requested tuning. Might run you a tad over $150 though.

[RMN]

Lots of useful information here guys, thanks a ton. I see that there is no clear answer to my question, and hope i didn't come off as not liking my twsbi's, because i certainly do. I was just thinking "man, I bought 2 of these, and 4 or 5 nibs plus the ones the pens came with. I could totally have gotten a nice $150 pen by this time" but clearly that could have been just as bad or worse off. my only real complaint about the twsbi is the diameter of the pen, I have small hands and find myself squeezing it harder than i do my sharbos, and would prefer a pen more along those sizes, but i can deal with it at the cost of quality of writing.

 

I just do NOT want to make this a hobby. my audiophilia and denim obsession are more than expensive enough, and I'd prefer if I just got a couple pens I really enjoyed and walked away before i was too hurt, haha. Maybe one day I'll look into a custom pen if I ever have an excessive amount of cash lying about...

Hi Erratik

 

I was afraid of that.

 

Fountainpens need a different grip form BPs. A Ballpoint needs pressure to transfer the ink to the paper. The ink is much dryer.

My top-pens have a lot of girth and weight. But they do not need gripping. They just ly in the web between thumb and forefinger, the section resting on my middlefinger en the thumb and forefinger just lightly along the pen to avoid it rolls away. These pens write on their own weight. I do not grip them. Actually, when I write you could lift the pen easily form its position. No gripping needed, no strain on your fingers. That is the real beauty of FPs, you do not get writers cramp like you do with BPs.

 

Do a search here on FPN on "deathgrip", this has been explained in extenso before. Bo Bo Olsen is one who loudly advocates a good grip. He claims he wasted many years of writing because of a bad grip.... I agree with him on this point.

 

 

D.ick

[deltree]

For starters, I've been a bit of a pen and paper fanatic for years, but have just recently taken the steps over to fountain pens. Up until now, I had been using my Zebra Sharbo X with 0.4mm gel inks and a 0.3mm pencil, 2B lead (or 4B if i ever used a 0.5mm. . .anyway) but I finally decided to cave and get some fountain pens.

 

It was not the smoothest road, I must say. My first was a Lamy Safari EF with Lamy black ink and I did not enjoy ANYTHING about it. it was too bold, it was scratchy, and it wasn't comfortable to write with. Sold it after about a week. After that I got a hero liseur 925 F along with some private reserve midnight blues which was slightly better in terms of smoothness, but still far too bold and too heavy for my liking, sold in another week.

 

After that I got a TWSBI Diamond 530 EF. The thickness was right but it was terribly scratchy. About that time I stumbled on goulet pens and got some various ink samples, and eventually got some Noodlers Turquoise Eel, as well as ordering a F nib set from twsbi off ebay just as a last resort.

 

and let me say, i LOVED it. it was honestly even more fine than the EF the pen came with, and silky smooth. I liked it so much that I bought a second pen right away, this time with a F.

 

Well thats where trouble began, I got it in and it was SIGNIFICANTLY more bold than the F nib I had received. Concerned, I emailed back and forth with speedy and they sent me a replacement nib fearing that maybe there was a mix up and i had gotten an incorrectly labeled nib or something. It was still huge. I decided as a last resort to purchase 2 more nib sets from ebay, one F and one EF. They came in today. And low and behold, the F I received was, once again, MUCH more fine than the other F's I had received, and noticeably more fine than the EF I had purchased along side it, though still slightly more bold than the first one i fell in love with (maybe its the different ink im using? Noodlers Dragons Napalm in this one) . I honestly have no clue whats going on there, but I got what I wanted so I wont question the workings of the world.

 

Anyway, these pens are quite smooth in my opinion, and write quite well, though I've never written with a $XXX pen before. and I don't mind spending the money, Id just like to know what I'd be getting into ahead of time? People told me I was crazy for spending $300 on a pair of jeans and $500 on a pair of headphones and they were WELL worth it, but I at least had the chance to try those out first ahha. I guess I'm mostly questioning it because between buying the second TWSBI and the number of nibs I went through trying to get one i liked, i almost could have gotten a pilot VP or something. Not that I mind.

 

Now to figure out what paper I like the most. . .but thats for another topic I guess

 

 

The thing is where I am from, the $300 jeans only cost us at most $20 to $25 dollars to produce ;)then we send it out to you guys Thought I would let you know before you go ahead and spend on something like that again:p

[troglokev]

The difference between a $50 pen and a $150 pen usually amounts to fit and finish. With honorable exceptions (TWSBI).

 

The original poster has had 5 scratchy nibs from 3 different manufacturers, which leads me to think that the problem may not be with the nibs, but with the OP's writing style. I get the distinct impression that too much force is being applied to the nib. (Symptoms: all the nibs feel scratchy, fine points writing like broads from multiple manufacturers, EF broader than F) Reducing writing force is something we've all had to do when changing from using ball-points, and it's particularly important if you are using a fine-point pen.