Why Can't We Have Silver Nibs!

[pkoko]

I have a serious question:

Why are 14K & 18K nibs rhodouim plated and not made out of white gold?

[hari317]

I have a serious question:

Why are 14K & 18K nibs rhodouim plated and not made out of white gold?

 

Pilot and Sailor of Japan did make White gold nibs which were clearly marked so.

[Deirdre]

Scriver

"But alloys with a high enough silver content to appear silver are generally still too corrosion resistant to avoid significant tarnish"

No. Unlike gold, even 100% pure silver does tarnish just on standing in the air.

 

Sorry about the typo. Yes, I meant corrossion prone.

That's interesting because, in my experience, starling silver is far more corrosion prone than some of the higher-silver-content alloys.

[Inka]

There's also the RU-PL [Ruthenium-Plathenium] and OS-PL [Osmiridium-Plathenium] nibs used in Parker "51"s I'm aware of, not silver but not gold either.

 

It should be pointed out (pardon the pun), but the RU-PL and OS-PL refers to the tipping material, not the rest of the nib. P51 nibs were made of 14K gold, with the balance made up of silver, zinc, and copper; see Shepherd (2004), p96.

Yes, very true, I should have pointed that out.

I was looking at macros I'd taken of my own P-"51"s and those nibs I'd worked on for others, saw the deep stampings and my brain was saying "Hey, Parker made RU-PL, OS-PL, R, ... nibs, I should mention that!".

My bad, it is indeed about the tipping and not the entire nib material used and I knew this very well, the majority is gold but those huge stampings throw off the brain seeing images of nibs in my mind that also have no 14K or gold content printed anywhere.

[Gobblecup]

I personally wouldn't care much for silver nibs if they are a poorer material compared to gold and steel. Gold nibs have worked just fine for me so far, and they and steel both can attain the look of silver, if need be.

 

What I do like is silver furniture on my pens, like many Montegrappa beauties. I think this application might be more useful and practical. But to each his own, and I can't say I've tried a "silver" nib before, and maybe trying the right one would change my mind.

[jar]

Remember Parker also made nibs from Octanium and Unobtanium.

[ashbridg]

Sheaffer's Pd/Ag nibs are made with a palladium-silver alloy that, I believe, is more palladium than silver. That is, it is a palladium alloy, not a silver alloy.

I've read that Sheaffer nibs with the palladium-silver hallmark etched in script have a much higher silver content than the others, as high as 90% silver. The unmarked nibs can have as high as a 90% palladium content.

 

Ashby

[Scriver]

Sheaffer's Pd/Ag nibs are made with a palladium-silver alloy that, I believe, is more palladium than silver. That is, it is a palladium alloy, not a silver alloy.

I've read that Sheaffer nibs with the palladium-silver hallmark etched in script have a much higher silver content than the others, as high as 90% silver. The unmarked nibs can have as high as a 90% palladium content.

 

Ashby

 

Where do you get the information that Sheaffer nibs marked Pd/Ag had up to 90% silver? Here is the information from Richard Binder's site:

 

palladium silver

( abbreviated PdAg) A class of tarnish-resistant silver-colored binary alloys of palladium and silver. Developed in Germany by Heraeus in 1931, palladium silver was used to manufacture nibs from the 1940s to the 1970s as a less costly alternative to gold. As with gold, a higher silver content (up to about 40%, at which point tarnish resistance begins to suffer) yields a softer alloy.

 

This is consistent with my understanding that palladium-silver alloys need more palladium than silver to retain useful tarnish resistance and my understanding that metal alloys are typically labeled with the more prevalent element first.

[Camander_Bun_Bun]

I do like silver but I have to agree with gold, you can find several white gold nibs. MB has some with it as well such as the Cool Blue

[professionaldilettante]

 

 

Now i know silver corrodes with ink.. BUT...if there is stainless steel... why isn't there stainless silver yet!!

 

What is stopping the manufacturers from offering it...??

Why can't I have a gold like nib in a $50 pen like TWSBI from Speedy??

 

 

Any of the distinguished chemistry/physics students among us please englighten me...

There is a "stainless" silver. It's called Argentium sterling silver, and it will never tarnish, with superior corrosion resistance, or so I've heard. But why? with metals likepalladium and gold out there, silver seems pretty low on the totem pole of precious metals(not that i don't like silver, as all my jewelery is silver).

[D Armstrong]

There is a "stainless" silver. It's called Argentium sterling silver, and it will never tarnish, with superior corrosion resistance, or so I've heard. But why? with metals likepalladium and gold out there, silver seems pretty low on the totem pole of precious metals(not that i don't like silver, as all my jewelery is silver).

 

A lot of it has to do with the working qualities of the metals, rather than their appearance.

 

When we look at the periodic table, we tend to see it horizontally, because that is how we read. However, it can also be analyzed vertically. The vertical row of metals including copper, silver, and gold are known for the ease with which they can be worked, and for their relative softness. The next group over, including platinum and palladium, are workable, but far stronger. One drawback in using these metals exclusively is that they tend to be much more brittle, especially when worked over time (which is basically the definition of industrial manufacture.)

 

Silver works as well as gold, is prettier and most tarnish-resistant than copper, and takes a polish beautifully. It will always be high on the metallic totem pole.

 

The magic of metallurgy is in knowing how to mix these metals together for specific uses. Adding about 7% of copper to 93% silver gives us a metal which is far, far stronger than pure silver, but retains it's ductility (workability.) In the case of palladium, it is very useful in strengthening gold or silver, but you wouldn't want too much in the mix, as it would make the final alloy too brittle.

 

Plating comes in when you want to give a certain appearance. In the case of the silvers, it is to minimize tarnish, while still having the actual piece (in this case a nib) made of the easy-to-work, cheaper material. I have no doubt that Parker would have used argentium silver, rather than rhodium plating, for their silver caps, had it been available in the 40s and 50s. However, plating it was the most cost-effective option at the time. (See my earlier post for more information on argentium silver.)

[rogerb]

Re 'octanium':

from a Parker brochure introducing this nib material on the Parker 51 model, Octanium is an alloy composed of eight different metals, each chosen for certain attributes:

 

Strength and hardness:

 

40% Cobalt

 

15% Nickel

 

20% Chromium

 

High resilience:

 

7% Molybdenum

 

2% Manganese

 

15% Iron (approximately)

 

Additional strength against all stresses and climatic conditions:

 

0.04% Beryllium

 

0.15% Carbon

 

 

And if high-content palladium is 'brittle', why don't the 23 carat Visconti Pd nibs appear to suffer from this?

Edited April 23, 2011 by rogerb

[D Armstrong]

And if high-content palladium is 'brittle', why don't the 23 carat Visconti Pd nibs appear to suffer from this?

 

Mmm, if the Pd content is ¹/₂₄th (karat specifically refers to gold content, so it's not 23k of palladium), then that would be about 4%. To be honest, I don't know the exact point at which the PD content affects gold 's ductility negatively, but Visconti obviously feels that is not enough to do it.

[professionaldilettante]

There is a "stainless" silver. It's called Argentium sterling silver, and it will never tarnish, with superior corrosion resistance, or so I've heard. But why? with metals likepalladium and gold out there, silver seems pretty low on the totem pole of precious metals(not that i don't like silver, as all my jewelery is silver).

 

A lot of it has to do with the working qualities of the metals, rather than their appearance.

 

When we look at the periodic table, we tend to see it horizontally, because that is how we read. However, it can also be analyzed vertically. The vertical row of metals including copper, silver, and gold are known for the ease with which they can be worked, and for their relative softness. The next group over, including platinum and palladium, are workable, but far stronger. One drawback in using these metals exclusively is that they tend to be much more brittle, especially when worked over time (which is basically the definition of industrial manufacture.)

 

Silver works as well as gold, is prettier and most tarnish-resistant than copper, and takes a polish beautifully. It will always be high on the metallic totem pole.

 

The magic of metallurgy is in knowing how to mix these metals together for specific uses. Adding about 7% of copper to 93% silver gives us a metal which is far, far stronger than pure silver, but retains it's ductility (workability.) In the case of palladium, it is very useful in strengthening gold or silver, but you wouldn't want too much in the mix, as it would make the final alloy too brittle.

 

Plating comes in when you want to give a certain appearance. In the case of the silvers, it is to minimize tarnish, while still having the actual piece (in this case a nib) made of the easy-to-work, cheaper material. I have no doubt that Parker would have used argentium silver, rather than rhodium plating, for their silver caps, had it been available in the 40s and 50s. However, plating it was the most cost-effective option at the time. (See my earlier post for more information on argentium silver.)

Silver, pure silver, has a high tarnish resistance. It is the copper added that makes it corrode and tarnish, but increases its hardness. The reason that gold and silver are valued as they are, is because of legacy. In the ancient world, these were the metals, along with copper, tin and iron, that were manipulatable with rather primitive techniques. Gold was especially valued because it can be found in nature in its elemental state (gold nuggets etc) and retains its luster without any special treatment. It is also the only metal that is, in its pure form, yellow. Thus its value, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Palladium is not brittle, as I've had a chance of playing with my Homo Sapiens 23 ct palladium nib before it was shipped off for repairs. It's much springier than either gold or stainless steel, and not at all brittle.

 

Also, your statement: Plating comes in when you want to give a certain appearance. In the case of the silvers, it is to minimize tarnish, while still having the actual piece (in this case a nib) made of the easy-to-work, cheaper material.

 

I would have to say plating is done in order to improve the marketablility of silver items. Rhodium is one of the whitest metals out there, but hard to work with and very expensive. However, people are put off by sterlings hue. In order to make it more marketable, sterling items are plated in rhodium in order to make it more appealing under the sales lights.

[D Armstrong]

Palladium is not brittle, as I've had a chance of playing with my Homo Sapiens 23 ct palladium nib before it was shipped off for repairs. It's much springier than either gold or stainless steel, and not at all brittle.

 

 

Oho! That would be why I included the caveat about work-hardening-brittleness, and pure Pd. And don't forget, 23k palladium is only 4% Pd and 96% Au.

 

I would have to say plating is done in order to improve the marketablility of silver items. Rhodium is one of the whitest metals out there, but hard to work with and very expensive. However, people are put off by sterlings hue. In order to make it more marketable, sterling items are plated in rhodium in order to make it more appealing under the sales lights.

 

Heh heh. I quite like sterling's hue. Perhaps it's a case of po-tay-to, po-tah-to? Perhaps it's for both reasons?

[professionaldilettante]

Palladium is not brittle, as I've had a chance of playing with my Homo Sapiens 23 ct palladium nib before it was shipped off for repairs. It's much springier than either gold or stainless steel, and not at all brittle.

 

 

Oho! That would be why I included the caveat about work-hardening-brittleness, and pure Pd. And don't forget, 23k palladium is only 4% Pd and 96% Au.

 

I would have to say plating is done in order to improve the marketablility of silver items. Rhodium is one of the whitest metals out there, but hard to work with and very expensive. However, people are put off by sterlings hue. In order to make it more marketable, sterling items are plated in rhodium in order to make it more appealing under the sales lights.

 

Heh heh. I quite like sterling's hue. Perhaps it's a case of po-tay-to, po-tah-to? Perhaps it's for both reasons?

 

I think you have the percentage of Pd wrong. Carat or k is a term of purity in terms of fractions of purity of how many parts of 24 is pure. Thus 24k gold is pure, 18k gold is 18/24 gold, and such. Thus 23k Palladium is 23/24 palladium, and 1/24 parts of something else, probably not silver.

Also a note on the rhodium plating, if you wear the item seriously enough, it will wear off pretty fast in short order, but by that time, you don't notice it missing. They also do that for white gold and such.

[D Armstrong]

I think you have the percentage of Pd wrong. Carat or k is a term of purity in terms of fractions of purity of how many parts of 24 is pure. Thus 24k gold is pure, 18k gold is 18/24 gold, and such. Thus 23k Palladium is 23/24 palladium, and 1/24 parts of something else, probably not silver.

 

There is often a bit of confusion as to these terms. For the record:

 

Carat (with a C): a unit of weight, used for gemstones. One carat is about 200 milligrams.

 

Karat (with a K): a measure of the proportion of fineness of gold. A measure out of 24 parts; thus, 1 karat is .0417% of pure gold in an alloy.

 

In essence, when Visconti (for example) refers to a "23K palladium nib," they are taking the nearly 96% gold content as a given, and telling customers that the balance is palladium. In retrospect, they ought to have been more clear in their description.

 

Remember, too, that you can't necessarily trust the internet to give you an accurate understanding of such things, as common misunderstandings tend to self-perpetuate (although, to be fair, wikipedia is pretty accurate this week on these topics.) Some excellent reading can be had in Tim McCreight's "Complete Metalsmith" (2004, but also various editions over the years.)

[hari317]

In essence, when Visconti (for example) refers to a "23K palladium nib," they are taking the nearly 96% gold content as a given, and telling customers that the balance is palladium. In retrospect, they ought to have been more clear in their description.

 

 

Sir, can you kindly quote some visconti literature to support that their 23K Palladium nib actually has 96% gold and only the rest as palladium?

 

I have not been able to find any specifics on their website, but their press release qoted in this FPN post: link suggests that the nib is 95% palladium and the rest of the components in the alloy are unspecified.

 

Value: the 23 ct 950 palladium nib is the nib with the highest value ever manufactured in the history of the fountain pen. In other words, it has 95% pure palladium against, for example, 75% of pure gold in an 18 ct gold nib and 58% in a 14 ct gold nib.

[D Armstrong]

Sir, can you kindly quote some visconti literature to support that their 23K Palladium nib actually has 96% gold and only the rest as palladium?

 

I have not been able to find any specifics on their website, but their press release qoted in this FPN post: link suggests that the nib is 95% palladium and the rest of the components in the alloy are unspecified.

 

Value: the 23 ct 950 palladium nib is the nib with the highest value ever manufactured in the history of the fountain pen. In other words, it has 95% pure palladium against, for example, 75% of pure gold in an 18 ct gold nib and 58% in a 14 ct gold nib.

 

I'm quite honestly gobsmacked. I completely retract my assertions about the metal content of Visconti "23 karat palladium" nibs, as I had no idea that that is how they were marketing them. (I should point out that I am completely a vintage guy, with the exception of my Sheaffer connoisseur, which was a gift.) I, too, cannot find any first-hand information on Visconti's website regarding either nib materials or press releases. Any references I can find to the press release you have quoted is from dealers, although it is likely accurate as it appears with similar content in several places online.

 

I also have to admit that the use of "karat" may be different in Italian, and that their use of "23 karat" to describe non-gold content may well be accepted there. However, the English definition I stated above is the proper one for this language. Visconti may be entering troubled waters legally if they are selling something in the English-speaking market described as "23 karat" when it has less than 23 karats of gold content.

 

As for the working qualities of the platinum group of metals (believe it or not, they are actually referred to in industry as "PGMs," and they include palladium), they are well documented. It could well be that Visconti has discovered a revolutionary new method of production that minimizes any drawbacks that might come from using a higher Pd content. However, it also could be that it is mostly good marketing. I should point out that I am not alone in recognizing that Pd content can seriously affect the qualities of a nib. Richard Binder states clearly on his web site:

 

 

Palladium alloys are not good for flexible nibs, but their other characteristics can be adjusted by varying the proportions of the metals used.

 

 

Bluntly put, we can see how gold and steel nibs have withstood the test of generations of use. We can only examine 17-month-old high-content palladium nibs. Is Visconti's highly-touted-but-completely-missed-by-me nib truly superior? Ask my great-grandchildren. (Perhaps they will even have figured out whether the "Pons and Fleischmann cold fusion theory" (mentioned in Visconti's sales information) was a fraud or not.)

Edited April 24, 2011 by D Armstrong

[Lloyd]

FYI: Danitrio makes a 24kt gold nib.